Forum:The Red Raven

Forums: Grand Lodge > The Red Raven


With today's Meet the Iconic blog post, it has been revealed that the Red Raven is the vigilante iconic. This poses an interesting problem for the wiki, as we already have a very well done article on him from the past two adventures in which he appeared. We may yet get more on him, especially since the existing Meet the Iconics is all about his vigilante persona rather than his social persona. In any case, what do folks think we should do to merge the existing information with the iconic backstory? Should we deviate from the established iconic article format we've used for every other iconic?
Well, this 'meet the iconics' post is different than they usually are. Instead of a matter of fact history from a omnipotent narrator, we have stories told from a street level commoner. What if we add a 'stories' or 'rumors' section? This could encompass this meet the iconics, and Amiri's version of how she obtained her sword. possibly the Lem story from the comics as well as its told from an unreliable narrator as well
Personally, I'd like to see all the iconics get their articles rewritten to be more encyclopedic and less narrative. Currently, we just copy/paste the Meet the Iconics blog text in, add wikilinks and an infobox and leave it at that. With more and more iconics appearing in other stories, from the comics to audio dramas, I think it serves the community more to give overviews of their entire story rather than just some (admittedly well written) backstories.

I agree and have never seen the iconic page as a place solely for the blog story and there, as you say, are many places to glean information about the iconics. Maybe we could add quotation marks, {{Quote}}, and a heading title around all the blog information on the pages to split it off from any other information we could add?

Re Red Raven, I'd say we should follow suit for now and add the Paizo Blog data, maybe add a second Person infobox to handle the 'old' Rogue data while the iconic infobox handles the new, but we must add some form of disambiguation comment to explain why as many might be confused coming to the Red Raven page from either version.

Ideally each of the iconics' pages would be like any other canon person's page, with the exception of the {{Iconic}} infobox and navbox.

For treating the iconics as canon entities, we should mind that Pathfinder Comics and Legends are Tier 4 canon resources and overruled by any first-party source. Locations, objects, people, and events in the comics—especially where they intersect with Pathfinder Campaign Setting, Player Companion, Adventure Path, and Society content—are easily overruled and should be included with care.

Also, many of the comics are written with potentially unreliable narrators. (Valeros's Origins #1 in particular comes to mind, both for Valeros's story and his unreliable retelling of Amiri's own unreliable story.) So is the Red Raven's vigilante persona's iconic story.

I'd strongly prefer noting the Red Raven's previous stat block in reference tag notes or a conflict page than have two different stat blocks, as the mechanical update does nothing to change the character's role in canon or any of his other traits. We are primarily a canon encyclopedia documenting the current state of its subjects, and the infoboxes should reflect that, especially when the only changes are mechanical.

In other words, a second conflicting infobox provides no benefit in describing the character, as the implication of him being the iconic vigilante is either that he has always been a vigilante, or he has become one; either way, he is a vigilante now, and his past doesn't warrant a separate navbox. This can be easily clarified with a reference note or conflict page without duplicating all but one piece of information in a second navbox.

And I'd also prefer not pasting the vigilante blog posts into the existing article, but rather updating the existing Red Raven article with the new information--rather than following the other iconics' form, the Red Raven should instead be a good example for revisions to all of the other iconics, where ideally all of the blog posts are rewritten in encyclopedic style and neutral point of view, with the now substantial canon information from other sources fully incorporated. We can always link to and reference the original blog posts.