So, this afternoon, I thought it might be nice to have a list of books in the PFCS. I ripped through some modules looking for mentions of mundane books, and come up with this
I'm looking for some suggestions on organization and presentation. Any and all welcome.
I started a Category:Books section, currently there are 2 articles... Gods and Magic has a mention of the holy writings of each deity I think. If you can stretch the entries to 3 or more sentences, then feel free to make them their own articles in the Category:Books. I've been trying to just write articles when I can, so haven't had time to make a template at all for it. I know that there are about a dozen books mentioned in the first Rise of the Runelords books as well...
OK went through Gods and Magic and listed them out on: my page
, we should most likely keep them at one place or the other I think...
Be aware that Category:Books
also contains the subcategories of real-world books. As fiction starts to come out in the future, this category will fill up and we should try to cut off confusion before it becomes a necessary project. I have an article already for Draconic Apsu
. The one reason I haven't been a big proponent of lists is that it means someone always has to keep updating them as each new source comes out and it's sometimes hard to quickly tell if a source was overlooked sometime in the past. Categories are much better for this because it automatically updates when new articles are made. But a compromise between a list as you have been creating and use of categories should be able to be reached. I just don't know what it is.
I figured fiction would be category:fiction or category:novels. At least that was what I was thinking when I created it
@Cpt kirstov: I can see where some descriptions could be long enough for their own article, but some of the references are pretty brief.
@Yoda8myhead: I agree that keeping a list of books up to date will be an ongoing project. I'm not sure how having separate entries in a category will make things any easier (I don't mean to sound like a dick here, I'm just not following what you're saying).
I've been looking around to see how similar problems are handled on other wikis. One example is the list of Harry Potter characters on wikipedia. They have one huge list of characters with short descriptions, linked out to separate articles where appropriate. I don't necessarily advocate this approach, but maybe seeing how others handle similar problems might be helpful. Does anybody else know of how others handle this problem?
Cpt_Kirstov, As it stands now, Category:Novels and Category:Sourcebooks are subcategories of Category:Books. If there are later graphic novels or whatever, they would also go in a new subcategory here. The idea behind an all encompassing Books category is to limit the number of root categories in the tree. It's easy enough to rearrange categories down the road if this seems to be the way we want to handle it.
Aeakett, I don't really know how many other wikis handle long lists, other than to make long lists. But I really hate that approach. When I see a long list, I click off to another page. They're just not useful to me. And they go against the project goal of maintaining encyclopedic formatting. If we're going to maintain lists, I'd rather do them in sortable tables like we are doing for the Monster index. I don't know what criteria we'd include for sortability in a list of in-world books, but the table format at least allows it to be more than just a long column of text.
Yoda:I agree that the sortable table is better than a straight list, so lets see what criteria we could have the list be sorted by:
Types of book (religious books, history books, and books of prophecy, and books of science are all included in the lists made so far).
Languages the book is written in, if known
Author, if known
Source book found in
From a player's perspective,I agree that the lists are unhelpful, but for a DM trying to create his own adventure, having a title that a player of adventure path X might recognize adds just that much more validity to the world, much the same as knowing that goblins are annoying little freaks instead of plain old CR 1 creatures found in every setting. Its those little easter eggs that make the players who are paying attention smile. Having them as their own pages after then allows that DM to print the page if anyone decides they want to pay attention to the book, and just use that as a hand out (thus advertising the wiki to his players)... just my 2 cp
Aeakett: The difference from a list to a category, is that when making a page, you would be adding a category anyway, which automatically updates the list in the category itself. Whereas a list you would have to consciously go to the list and add a row/line. Its just easier to edit one page than 2, especially as we grow and (hopefully) get many more members creating pages, making it harder to monitor every new article.
I don't know if there's a master list or anything, but the Aleh Almaktoum
is an Osirian
collection of papyrus scrolls on necromancy, mentioned in Osirion, Land of Pharaohs
. These books, if organized in Categories instead of Lists, would make any awful lot of tiny stub-like pages. --Goblin Witchlord
17:57, September 8, 2009 (UTC)
Luckily, anything we go with for now can (fairly easily) be changed to the alternative if we come to a decision on how to handle books. In the meantime, I suggest all information be added in some form or another and then organized later. Better to get the info up before it gets overlooked. My vote, if it comes to that, will be for a single page using definition lists for each book, directing to full articles for books which warrant their own page.
Yep, Aekett's definition list, addng the Gods & Magic books, &c., looks like a great start. There's also Travels on the Far Frontier
, cited from the Council of Thieves Player's Guide
on the River Adivian
page. As well as the play The Six Trials of Lazarod
from The Sixfold Trial
My only concern with a definition list, is when is it too long? befor the crash on the old server I had a list of over 30 books, from the first few (3 or 4) books of runelords alone, and since then we have at least 50 more. While some of them were just the title and author, some were enough for their own pages. what happens when this list reaches 500+ books?
Indeed, a definitions list with more than five dozen items would quickly become one of the longest pages in the wiki, I love lists, but really long lists, like Wikipedia's Wikipedia:List of Star Wars races
are unwieldy even for those of us who like them. OTOH, I agree that it's better to get the information on the wiki in some organized (if unwieldy) way, rather than having 500 books that haven't been added at all. And I suspect that a list may be easier to convert to ndividual articles than individual articles to a list.
What GW said.
I compiled a list here: List of works
. I believe that's every book, scroll, poem, or play listed on the wiki at present, except perhaps stuff from The Hydra's Fang Incident
. Dunno if that's the best name for the page, but it seemed more accurate than List of books
due to the other materials included.
Keep in mind that we use "works" in categories to denote real-world books and products written or designed by specific people. I could see some confusion arising between List of works
and Category:Works by James Jacobs
. That's my only real concern.
Yes. I think List of works
is a bad name for the article, but I don't know would be better; List of books
could be confused with Category:Books
and the many real-world sourcebooks. For clarity, it should be somethign like List of fictional books
...but that breaks the in-world POV.