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Forum:Outside Art Template

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Forums: Grand Lodge > Outside Art Template

Hey everyone, I mentioned in one of the talk pages recently about the possibility of a template, similar to the spoiler template, to go to the top of the page to denote art about a specific topic that isn't in the CUP. Well, I used the spoiler one as a source, and made These templates. What do people think. I figured if you can't find the artist's name from their gallery, it's most likely not an idea to link to it, so that's why I put the name in there
I added the first of the templates on the art from Burnt Offerings that had obvious pictures that hadn't been included on the CUP or in Yoda's external linking, I wasn't going to use the second, as the external links covered most of those.I'm going to try to go through the rest of RotRL tonight
Also, can we use the external image template for art from the avatars on the paizo boards, or would that be pushing it?
Gotta say, not a fan of the big blue bar at the top of every page that has an illustration in every Paizo book ever. Before we go adding it to literally hundreds of pages, can we make sure it's what we want to use?
Yup, fine with me, that was why i waited a week for feedback before i started using it, and in that time all I got was Fleanetha saying he thought iot looked good and that he had started using it.its also why I put the important stuff like page numbers and product together at the end, so that it was easier to change
Yes, I think it serves a purpose well. Yoda8myhead, can you elaborate on where you think it fails please so we understand?
Fleanetha I think the concern is more the blue bar being on many pages, (if RotRL is any indication, its about 75 per Adventure Path that have articles, plus chronicles, modules, PFS, companions, web fiction, ect.) I had chosen the bar style template as it was similar to the spoiler template and served a similar purpose - information about the real-life product that the article is about. I wanted it to stand out from the article proper, as otherwise it breaks the point of view of a in world encyclopedia
My concern is three-fold. I think the template is ugly and bulky and cluttered and takes up way too much space at the top of the page—above the fold—just to direct people to something other than another page within the project. Secondly, every single Pathfinder product has TONS of art. I don't think we need a template telling people where something's been illustrated. We already cite specific pages on which information appears. If that's not enough for someone to check out the source to see an image, I'm not sure if putting it in bold surrounded in bright blue is really needed. Lastly, what happens on articles for things that have been illustrated a number of times? Ileosa Arabasti has at least four images I can think of off the top of my head; we've also got one image that's available under the CUP. How many image references would we link to for Valeros or Seoni, who've appeared countless times in many, many products?

I guess my main issue is "why?" Is this really the best use of the project's time? If someone's going through every book to find every piece of art, I'd much rather see that person add actual content to the relevant articles instead. In the end, a page doesn't look better, nor is it monumentally more useful, to include this information. Including an actual image adds a ton to an article, but adding a big template to tell people where they can find their own image is much less so, and I'd argue even detracts from the page's aesthetics and functionality, as it just adds more stuff on the page for people to look past when trying to find the real information.

Ultimately, if someone wants to go through and do all this work, I'm not going to stop them, but I'm not sure it's necessarily in the project's best interest.

"In the end, a page doesn't look better, nor is it monumentally more useful, to include this information." I disagree, I think that having the link to show a DM who is not running that particular adventure where they can find a picture, especially if a article has at least 2 sources listed and no art. I would argue that it does just as much as adding a picture, maybe even more. It advertises that the product not only has the information that we have collated, but also a picture.

"it just adds more stuff on the page for people to look past when trying to find the real information." I would say the spoiler bar does the same thing, as does the update and more source bar (and when there are lots of them on one article it gets unruly).

"Lastly, what happens on articles for things that have been illustrated a number of times?" there are a few of these I came against last night. I ended up using it like this:

1) If the article has NO art and there is a action scene/landscape with the article's subject as the predominant subject matter I included it.

2)If the article has art that is an action or landscape, but I found a 'bestiary type' picture, thats the monster and a background, or a head shot, ect. I added that.

3) If there were two pictures from the same source that fit #1, I listed both page numbers (see Goblin dog)

4) if I had an action scene listed, and a 'bestiary style' art came along in a later product, the bestiary art would take precedent.

"We already cite specific pages on which information appears. If that's not enough for someone to check out the source to see an image, I'm not sure if putting it in bold surrounded in bright blue is really needed." yes, we do.. but we cite sources based on the written text and not the pictures. There are many times that the art is not with the description of a person, but instead with the description of thier store. While many of these will still give facts that would be included in an article on a person, but this is not always the case. Someone looking to find what a barkeeper looks like, most likely isn't going to click on the link to her bar to find citations for pages that include said picture.

I'm not against other options, and doing the entire RotRL AP took me under an hour, but I think the information is at least as valuable as most of the things in the stat block templates. I agree having the Blue at the top of the screen might be a bit much. What if I took out the blue bars and put it in a line above the references, since thats basically what it is? Personally I perfer it at the top, as I'm a visual person, and get distracted when reading descriptions in source books unless I have something to compare it to, but I'm open to either way
I just don't think cataloguing every piece of art in any Pathfinder source falls within the scope of the project. There are thousands of pictures, and it just seems like a bunch of extra info that's not really useful to someone. If they're running an adventure, they already have the adventure and thus already have the related art. Putting it in the text is even worse, though, as it's just adding more text that's in a different POV. If we had a template at the top of hundreds of articles saying "more information on Absalom can be found on page XX of the Guide to Absalom. Thanks! Not very helpful though. In this case, if we can't show the art, I don't see the need to reference it. If we can show the art, it adds instantly to the value of a given article, otherwise it gets in the way of what artless articles should do, which is provide the canon information about a given subject. If there's art of it that we can't use, write an Appearance header and describe the picture. Then cite the page from which it comes. This does both refer people to the actual image as well as provide useful information that someone without the book can actually use.
Just a few quick thoughts while I'm still at work here:

Is the new template just as ugly as the spoiler template, or any others mentioned... yes. I'm not sure that that justifies adding another one to the mix (I'd actually like to do something about all of the ugly templates, but that's out of scope for this discussion). I'm not too sold on the value either. While I understand and appreciate the notion, it seems like a LOT of work to me for something that doesn't add anything to the actual reading of the wiki. I think I'd be happier if this sort of information was included at the end of the article. I also wonder if it's reall in the project's scope.

I'm going to think more about this and post again.

Finally, I'd like to appologize to Cpt kirstov for a) not thinking about this, and sharing my opinions sooner, and b) "pilling on" to criticism of a not insubstantial amount of work.

Quick navigational post before the debate moves too far away from original purpose. In my mind this is not and never was about cataloguing the whole art library Paizo has. It was to find a neat way to direct a reader to art for an article for which no CUP art is available. A picture paints a thousand words... and if I were DMing a game, a reference to a picture could be very useful. My initial attempt at doing this was useless; I think Cpt Kirstov's has more elegance and is better than nothing. I think this is fully within the project's scope as I understand it. If somebody says the scope documents are old and aren't exactly what is currently meant, I shall scream. (This last comment should be seen as amusing not threatening; or actually a serious proposition).
You're right, it's not out of scope. It does break our POV though.(as do lots of things, not the least of which is the spoiler or update headers). As for usefulness, I'm not really the best judge of that I suppose, since I don't actually play, and have access to all of Paizo's publications (ones you can subscribe to at least). I think that if I wanted a picture of Khemet III for example, I after looking at the one that I know is in the Osirion book, I'd go to his article and look at the references section. I'd assume that the article was complete and up to date (which is kind of a big leap I know) and look in the books cited in the article. I know that there could often be a piece of art depicting the subject in an uncited book, but I think where this conversation ultimately leads is to an art index. Actually, maybe that's what makes sense to me. Have an art index, and if the subject of the article has art then add a badge to the article (which could link to the index—he said without fully thinking though the technical details). Ugh, it just seems like a lot of work, but nobody here can (or wants to) tell you what to spend your time on. Once again, my main complaint is that it's ugly (again, just like the spoiler template and others).
I think the badge idea is an excellent one and much less intrusive to the overall look of a page. If the items were indexed alphabetically by subject, and an {{anchor}} were placed before each entry using the subject article's name as that anchor, a badge could, in theory, direct people to the portion of the index page with the actual information. This would keep all the art indexing in one concise place, even linking to the art if it exists off-site (like dA or an artist's page), crediting artists if known, and linking to internally hosted images that are part of the CUP. Now that would actually be a really helpful resource! Not only for users but for those of us in Paizo who are always going "where was there that picture of that one dwarf with the thing?". It could be set up similarly to the Monster index, as a table that gets added to with each subsequent release.

We may also consider moving the spoiler template into a badge as well. Can we use java to have a popup explaining the spoiler when someone mouses over the spoiler tag? Maybe the same sort of thing for the images badge?

Back on topic, though, I think that pointing people to artwork is a worthwhile task if someone wants to see the project through completely (I'd rather not have it left half-done because someone lost interest; either do it all and let someone maintain it with new material, or don't start it), but that the implementation should be more elegant. As Aeakett said, just because we've got ugly templates at the tops of pages now doesn't mean we should add more. Rather, we should fix those to bring them in line with the badges, that I think work really well to show POV, featured content, non-canon, and protected pages, each of which used to be its own ugly template just like {{spoiler}}, {{update}}, etc.

I like the idea of badges a lot. This sounds good.
Like I said, what I did only took an hour, 3/4 of which was waiting for pages to load, which was more done as a test to see what it would look like, and what people would think. It was mostly paste, change pages number, and once per book change the link. I like the idea of a badge instead as well. I'm not sure about how to set up the badge correctly, though. If someone can help me get it off the ground I'll take it on.
OK, have a look at Harridan
You, sir, are awesome. Now can we have one for spoilers? Maybe that's too much, as we need to be able to say what's being spoiled. Anyway, good work!
I'm pondering how to do it while I work on legal art for the badge. Also, I'm taking suggestions for art for the notional spoiler badge.
What about a keyhole? Or the universal poison symbol? Or just the letters SHH! or even SPOILER!
I've been out of town for the last week, but quickly wanted to chime in as well. I agree that the large blue box is way too obtrusive and doesn't fit in with the general color scheme of the wiki. I also agree that the badge tags, similar to the ones used for featured articles, would be much preferable. As for an idea of what to use for a spoiler tag, how about a stylized exclamation mark?
More or less finished with burnt offerings - It took as long as pasting the template to the entire RotRL adventure path, I'll try to go through at least a product a day, I wasn't sure if the pics tagged as "Thassilonian ruins" and "Untagged art" to see if there are some other tags that should be included for those two. Yoda, thanks for the cleanup.
Now all the pages that have the ugly blue bar at the top need to have that removed and put the {{Badges|art}} tag put at the top instead.
Might I suggest we find a new name for 'ugly blue bar' as it was some work (even though he modestly denies it was much) by Cpt kirstov - maybe 'prototype art badge', as it was a major stepping stone to getting us a fantastic new wiki resource? I really like this new badge now (well done Aeakett) and will convert all my 'prototype' pages over today.

To add to the spoiler badge debate - it clearly has to be different as it needs the product mentioned that it spoils to be of use. How about a no entry sign with the product written across the horizontal bar. Now no entry signs are common in Europe but must not assume they are elsewhere so there is a picture of one on this page: No Entry Sign: it's the third image down - red and white.

Aeakett 12:10, 28 March 2011 (UTC)
The blue bars should all be gone. the index is complete through the Fortress of the stone giants