Talk:First World/Conflicts

Souls

"The First World" article of Sound of a Thousand Screams states that "Creatures of the First World have no souls", that "the (First World lacks) those items that most hold deities' interest: souls" (page 66), and that "if a First World creature dies on a different plane, it ceases to exist" (page 67).

"The River of Souls" article of Pyramid of the Sky Pharaoh states that souls "first pass through the riotous expanse of the First World ... sparking the creation of fey beings in their passage" (page 71), that fey are created from soul energy and "their forms result from soul energy becoming mired amid the energies of the First World" (page 71), that "when fey are destroyed on the First World, their souls are not lost" (page 72), that "when slain on the Material Plane, fey souls are drawn into the River of Souls like any other" (page 72), and that fey killed on the Material Plane "can be resurrected and returned to life, as any mortal" (page 72).

Both are in canon tier 1. Per the canon policy, Pyramid of the Sky Pharaoh should take precedence as the newer source if these statements cannot be reconciled. -Oznogon (talk) 21:07, 6 October 2015 (UTC)

Also noted the conflict in Talk:Soul/Conflicts. If this is resolved differently, please modify soul for consistency. -Oznogon (talk) 21:17, 6 October 2015 (UTC)

Tier 2 Fey Revisited states that "Fey have no souls" (page 3), that they can be killed "like any other" on the Material Plane (page 3), that gremlins are "lacking souls" (page 11), that fey are called "soulless" in in-character text (page 16), and that norns do not permanently die on the Material Plane (page 23). However, as a lower-tier source than either Pyramid or Thousand Screams, it shouldn't directly factor into the conflict; I'm adding this for additional context. -Oznogon (talk) 22:01, 6 October 2015 (UTC)

James Jacobs says fey have souls. Messageboards clarifications are technically a low-tier source, however; see PathfinderWiki talk:Canon policy for a discussion to change this. -Oznogon (talk) 22:05, 6 October 2015 (UTC)

New souls

The First World, Realm of the Fey pg. 3 states that Pharasma and other gods left the First World out of the cycle of souls. A previous version of this wiki article interpreted that as meaning no new souls would enter the First World. Bestiary 2 (2E) pg. 199 claims that souls can be judged and assigned to the First World, and describes how such souls are reincarnated as fey rather than transitioning over time as petitioners/shades.

As the newer and higher-tier source, Besitary 2 is now reflected in the wiki. -Oznogon (talk) 18:52, 5 December 2023 (UTC)

Connecting planes

The Gamemastery Guide pg. 140 suggests the First World overlaps both the Material Plane and the Shadow Plane. Sound of a Thousand Screams pg. 64 suggests it exists outside of the standard cosmology, being somehow "behind" the other two planes.

GM Core places the First World in the standard cosmology, and while both the First World and Netherworld overlap the Material Plane, neither GM Core nor Player Core state that the First World and Netherworld overlap each other, with the cosmological map on GM Core pg. 174 depicting them as separate, with the First World closer to Creation's Forge and the Netherworld closer to the Void. The newer Tier 1 Core works are used here. -Oznogon (talk) 01:34, 13 November 2023 (UTC)