Bestiary 2 is a Tier 1 source for monster stats and specifically states "Environment any (Outer Planes)" for paracletus. I have added Astral planes as a new non-Outer Sphere environment as Planar Adventures 150 specifically calls that out. But note, that same source, on page 174, has them in Axis too, more in line with Bestiary 2. Thus, I am unconvinced they are just Astral Plane creatures and reverted the change carried out on 22 October 2018. --Fleanetha (talk) 19:15, 20 November 2018 (UTC)
- Huh, I wasn't aware that the plane where a monster came from was counted as a 'stat' of monsters (I thought only CR, type and subtypes counted). Also, isn't Planar Adventures also a tier 1 source? And I think we already had a similar discussion in Talk:Akhana. - HTD (talk) 23:09, 20 November 2018 (UTC)
|“||'Huh': Used to express scorn, anger, or surprise. OED||”|
- Best not use that again, then. I don't understand the second clause HTD; we use the 'Environment' text from the source in the stat block as is, and make categories from that. Planar Adventures is also a Tier 1 source. I am not caught up to the Talk:Akhana debate, but just read it, and it seems to be making similar points to mine above, so, yes, you did. --Fleanetha (talk) 23:28, 20 November 2018 (UTC)
- I was somewhat surprised, to be honest. I mean, the origin of a monster does sound more like fluff than crunch to me. But anyway, while Oznogon made a similar point to yours, the way he implemented the changes was somewhat different, and I don't know which admin to listen to. - HTD (talk) 23:41, 20 November 2018 (UTC)
- A creature's origins alone are not equivalent to a creature's environment, many decisions (including the decision on Akhana) are informed by case-by-case research and discussion and not blanket policy, the appropriate venue to discuss deletions are on talk pages and not unilateral edits or edit summaries, and—once again—for better and kinder collaboration with other editors please at least attempt to discuss deletions before performing them.
- An edit rollback does not indicate any judgment passed on the entirety of an affected edit, it's a tool that's part of the MediaWiki software to reset the state of an article to a previous point. It doesn't preclude or prevent rolled-back content from being restored, but it does give time for others to discuss and collaborate upon those changes, especially when the reasoning behind them was unclear.
- It's OK if Fleanetha comes to a different decision here than I did, especially if he comes to it without knowledge of another discussion that wasn't referenced as context prior to the deletion. Both his decision here and my decision on Akhana are equally valid and not final; this is a wiki, not a stone tablet.
- We're not asking you to listen to one of us over the other, we're asking (again) for you to discuss deletions before barreling through with deletions.
- Like Fleanetha noted, my rationale for Akhana is on its talk page. I would apply the same change here and add both Astral and Outer planes in the infobox's environment parameter, based on how Planar Adventures has paracletuses in the random encounter tables for both the Astral Plane and Axis. Since Planar Adventures does not have a creature statblock with an environment line, in both this case and Akhana the environments are being inferred by other text, including those tables.
- It might also be best for all parties to take a step back from this page before this discussion takes on any assumptions of bad faith by anyone involved. There is no urgency whatsoever around these edits to this subject. I'm locking this article for 24 hours and flagging this discussion for Category:Discussions to revisit. -Oznogon (talk) 00:10, 21 November 2018 (UTC)
- If nobody has further comment, I'll mark this discussion as resolved in 7 days (December 6) and ask all involved to accept it until another source comes along. The environment now lists both Outer Sphere and Astral Plane, which seems in line with both past and current canon descriptions. -Oznogon (talk) 02:31, 1 December 2018 (UTC)
Boneyard isn't listed because I couldn't find something in Planar Adventures that lists them as being in the Boneyard. You didn't list them as being in the Boneyard in your edits either. Is there another source?
And no, I'm not going to make a blanket decision about every aeon based on this one's Talk page. You're likely going to judge each based on what's in the text. If you're not sure, please discuss it on the Talk page. -Oznogon (talk) 18:26, 1 December 2018 (UTC)
- Well, I extrapolated it from the presence of aeons in the Boneyard according to Planar Adventures. Do we need a more specific source? - HTD (talk) 23:19, 1 December 2018 (UTC)
- PA says aeons can be encountered in the Boneyard, but not all aeons. The Boneyard random encounter lists include akhanas, bythos, lipikas, othaoses, pleromas, and theletoses, but not paracletus or synesis aeons. No other text mentions paracletuses specifically inhabiting the Boneyard. The only mentions in the entire book of paracletuses are in the Axis and Astral Plane random encounter tables. The statblock for the Boneyard on p178 doesn't include aeons in general or paracletuses specifically. So is there a source you can cite for that? -Oznogon (talk) 04:13, 2 December 2018 (UTC)
I have hidden or removed content citing descriptive text in Pathfinder First Edition Bestiary volumes, or replaced it with content from newer canon sources. Please do not restore it without replacing those citations with canon sources. -Oznogon (talk) 09:36, 27 October 2019 (UTC)