Talk:Ratfolk
Merge (RESOLVED)
According to Bestiary (2E) p. 277, ysoki is now the proper endonym of the species commonly known as ratfolk:
“[...] ratfolk are rodent-like humanoids well suited to living on the outskirts of mainstream society. Despite common misconceptions that they are dirty or diseased, ysoki, as they call themselves [...]
”
People of the Stars p. 15 suggests that the subjects of the current ratfolk and ysoki articles are one and the same (or at least not different enough for two articles):
“The so-called Ysoki rat-men of Akiton (or, as they refer to themselves, simply the Ysoki) are clever engineers and scavengers that adopt technological and societal traits from other cultures and make them their own. They are physically all but indistinguishable from Golarion’s ratfolk, leading many exobiologists to speculate that the two races are in fact one and the same, or at least have diverged only very recently on an evolutionary timescale
”
I'll assume if there's no comment in the next two weeks that it is acceptable to merge the contents of this article into ratfolk (under the name ysoki) and make relevant changes to other articles. - HTD (talk) 02:07, 14 December 2019 (UTC)
Added some fun context originally omitted from the excellent quote. Great job -Oznogon (talk) 10:38, 16 December 2019 (UTC)
Demerge? (RESOLVED)
I am unsure this was a good merge, HTD, and one that was objected to at the time. Your chosen reference, caligni, is the name used in the Bestiary (2E) as the page header, but this creature is filed under 'ratfolk' and most other refs to them I can find in other 2e books are to ratfolk. Plus the trait is 'Ratfolk'. Furthermore, images and navboxes are not moved/renamed and the category structure retains ratfolk as the main tier, so the move is still incomplete. I'd suggest we revert: use 'ratfolk' as the main page name as per the new Bestiary, show 'ysoki' as an endonym, reinstate Ysoki with a capital 'Y' for the 'Ysoki rat-men of Akiton'.
Alternatively, we stick with ysoki, but the job needs completing and the distinctive nature of the alien Ysoki needs bringing back.
Nevertheless, I'd prefer 'ratfolk' as the page name, so we stay consistent with Paizo and the wiki infrastructure. Am I missing anything? --Fleanetha (talk) 20:51, 13 August 2020 (UTC)
- I was following another guideline which has existed for a few years, namely 'Use true names', so the correct name to use would be ysoki instead of ratfolk. We have a precedent for this in the forms of devils (whose articles have always been named barbazu, hamatula,... instead of bearded devil, barbed devil,..., even though the latter are ). Plus, since the terms ratfolk and ysoki are now synonyms in-world, it would be very confusing to use ratfolk as the name of the article for the entire species and ysoki for the Akitonian group (which, as I said, are probably not distinctive enough to have a whole article). - HTD (talk) 00:25, 14 August 2020 (UTC)
- Fair enough. I do notice that Paizo has the devil's true names as the header in its 2E bestiaries though, so ysoki is more of an outlier. Nevertheless, we are stuck in a half-way-house position at the moment that needs resolving one way or another - will you push on to complete the ysoki rename please as per comments above. Let me know what deletions need to be made when done. Thanks. --Fleanetha (talk) 10:54, 16 August 2020 (UTC)
For starters, Category:Ysoki/Inhabitants should not be a subcategory of Category:Ratfolk/Inhabitants (since they're synonyms now). - HTD (talk) 15:15, 17 August 2020 (UTC)
Pick one [Ratfolk - and concluded]
This can of worms keeps reopening itself on Discord, so I want to get consensus here on using either "ratfolk" or "ysoki" consistently everywhere, especially now that we have a new set of Remastered core books in which ratfolk are consistently named ratfolk, and a Tian Xia World Guide glossary that refers the term "ysoki" back to "ratfolk" even as it inconsistently uses both in the text.
Paizo is aligned on the use of "ratfolk" in Pathfinder regardless of what they've done in Starfinder, but the only thing consistent about our use of "ratfolk" on PathfinderWiki is how regularly we're called out for being inconsistent and confusing about it, both on the subject and in the content and application of the cited naming conventions policy. -Oznogon (talk) 20:07, 31 July 2024 (UTC)
- Tian Xia Character Guide primarily uses "ysoki", including in a heading (33) and image label (29). However, it also uses ratfolk on page 33 and sometimes switches between the two within a paragraph, including once within a sentence ("Many ysoki have similar patterns of black fur and red eyes, but the ratfolk of Tian Xia boast a wide range of earthen tones to their fur."). In the glossary (134), the entry for ysoki reads only "See ratfolk, Player Core 2 28–31", and the entry for ratfolk on the same page is the primary definition. Other uses in TXCG: ysoki on 110, Ysoki (language) on 83. -Oznogon (talk) 20:11, 29 August 2024 (UTC)
- Ratfolk - and I volunteered to make this change on Discord as well, so happy to do so when I get time. Another problem is we are internally inconsistent too and that needs resolving with Help:Renaming pages due to canon changes; but I know you know this, Oz. --Fleanetha (talk) 20:47, 31 July 2024 (UTC)
- That was a mess - still two parallel category trees after all these years, plus a few other inconsistencies too. Any renaming must follow Help:Renaming pages due to canon changes completely or leave a 'Request for move' on the page. I think it is now finally consistent and aligned to the new naming convention change. Use of ysoki in text are left as they are not 'wrong' but others can update them as they see fit. Please check. --Fleanetha (talk) 15:14, 16 November 2024 (UTC)