Talk:Vyre
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City-state or autonomous non-state
User:Zimmerwald1915 raised on the wiki Discord that Vyre is autonomous, but not a sovereign city-state. As Paizo sources are inconclusive on the subject, I've removed the capital designation, city-state category, and references to being a city-state from the article pending either a consensus decision or canon clarification. -Oznogon (talk) 17:00, 8 March 2025 (UTC)
- World Guide 105 starts the Vyre section with, 'The independent city-state of Vyre...' Those words were in the ib as-is and prompted the city-state category; the reference was in the ib. I think a discord comment might prompt discussion here before major change? World Guide is a pretty solid canon clarification. If other sources differ, that should prompt a conflict here with deviating source material referenced and a wiki decision made according to our canon policy. The more modern sources cited on the Vyre page are from Curtain Call AP, but the Curtain Call Player's Guide states spoilers prevent it discussing Vyre too much on p24, so I'm reluctant to delve too much deeper into this, sorry, but assume the doubt creeps in there? --Fleanetha (talk) 00:10, 9 March 2025 (UTC)
- I disagree that disabling a category, toggling the capital marker on the map, and ambiguating the term "city-state" to "autonomous city" constitutes a major change, which is why I was comfortable making it as part of opening discussion. The article is less specific about what Vyre is, but not inaccurate.
- The doubt does in fact creep in during the Curtain Call campaign, which are newer sources of equal tier to World Guide. The following is an example that should not constitute spoilers for the campaign (emphasis mine):
- "Before Ravounel’s secession, Vyre already operated as a city largely outside the jurisdiction of Cheliax, a self-governing free port that promised privacy ... Things have largely remained unchanged in Vyre since Ravounel's secession." —Stage Fright 57
- World Guide appears to be the only source to describe Vyre as a city-state, and Curtain Call consistently does not. Neither does Age of Ashes, which describes Vyre and its relationship with Ravounel in more detail in Tomorrow Must Burn.
- Other sources muddy the waters more than clear them: Firebrands 111 asserts that Vyre is "nominally part of Ravounel" and that "the city's secret masters insist that Vyre is loyal to Ravounel". Dance of the Damned 7, on its status under Cheliax, points out that "while technically part of Cheliax, the city of Vyre has long been treated more as a free city by the government".
- In the specific context of whether Vyre is a city-state, the question is its capacity for sovereignty, which seems to be de facto but not de jure. On one hand, its leadership politically supports Ravounel's government and advises it; on the other, Ravounel doesn't appear to claim it as a holding as Cheliax had. Vyre lacks formal representation in Ravounel's government, is fully self-governing with its own authoritative leadership and succession, and is described as not being beholden in any way to Ravounel's laws or leadership while also enforcing its own separate laws (Tomorrow Must Burn 60, Bring the House Down throughout), complete with its own extraordinarily cruel prison (Bring the House Down, Belly of the Black Whale 66).
- However, it is also depicted as being within Ravounel's borders (Curtain Call) and "nominally part of Ravounel" (Firebrands 111), and co-dependent with Ravounel for defense (Dance of the Damned).
- A separate category of Category:Stateless settlements already exists for settlements that are autonomous but lack sovereignty over their territory, and though there aren't many as examples, it might be more appropriate for Vyre under Ravounel as it is described in Curtain Call.
- In any case, Vyre is distinctly Vyre. As I noted on the Discord discussion, any decision made for it—including reverting and retaining assertions that it is a sovereign city-state—should be exceptions, not rules. -Oznogon (talk) 01:33, 9 March 2025 (UTC)