Talk:True giant

Article discussion

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I have a dumb question. It looks like we're missing a master Giant article (couldn't find it via search or in the Monster_index index). Should I just create one? EDIT: The srd classifies them as true giants. Nizos the giant lover

As far as I am aware, there is no precedent for identifying "true giants" within the campaign setting, and perhaps not even within Pathfinder. It seems to be something that falls in the realm of concepts people brought with them from 3.X, and even then I don't know if such identifications were ever officially made.

I believe in Pathfinder all giants are simply humanoids, and a troll or an ogre is as much a giant as a frost giant. In fact, this might be why we never created a master article for giants, as they are no longer a unique subtype. Even if they were still a unique subtype, however, such classifications are crunch content, and beyond the scope of this project.

In any case, identifying true giants definitely feels a bit too crunchy. If precedent can be found within the source material, by all means we should support this terminology. If not, then it should not be included within the project. -- Heaven's Agent 02:12, 28 November 2010 (UTC)

As this discussion pertains directly to a different (new) article, I've flagged True Giant as a candidate for deletion. This does not mean we won't keep the article, just that we are considering its validity within the project; we should continue this discussion on its talk page. -- Heaven's Agent 02:19, 28 November 2010 (UTC)

— Original source: Talk:Stone giant

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The Bestiary definitely doesn't seem to acknowledge any sort of "true giant" subclass. I'm cool with a deletion, but it does seem a shame that isn't some place on the wiki to capture this classic trope. The Campaign Setting does seem to differentiate between "true giants" and the other types, for example page 41, page 81, page 95, and page 144, but it isn't definitive. --Nizos

Actually, going through the CS, and specifically the pages you mentioned, I don't see any indication of differentiating "true giants" from others of the subtype, nor how such a definition would be quantified. In fact, a search of the book's text shows no instances of the phrase being used.

That said, we could include a general article for giants, provided there is information within an accepted source on the subtype as a whole from which to base such an article. -- Heaven's Agent 04:02, 28 November 2010 (UTC)

Time passes and Giant Hunter's Handbook p 14 clearly distinguishes between 'true giant' and giantkin. --Fleanetha (talk) 07:58, 24 May 2015 (UTC)

Urganta

Yeah, the exact phrase "true giant" isn't used anywhere in the CS. The only place it is used directly in all the Paizo text is page 90 of Fortress of the Stone Giants: "Among the weakest of the true giant races, hill giants were most commonly the victims chosen..." The CS hits are more contextual. Page 41 of CS: "[W]here the bear clans battle mammoth-riding giants..." - not stone giants, or hill giants, simply giants, and one doubts they are talking about trolls here. The rest of the cited pages have similar contextual relevance.

In any case, probably the most compelling evidence that there's Something Special About Giants (other in my own irrational affection for them, heh :P) is the rune giant legacy bit, where the Thassilonians figured out that the various giant races carry within them some kind of special timeless power that, when bound to runewells, granted them harvested immortality. "Though individual giants lived out their alloted spans and then died like other creatures, the runelords discovered a core running between them from generation to generation reaching all the way back to the bedrock of time." Even though the rune giants themselves came from fire giant stock, this technique worked fine on hill giants as well, and presumably any other "true giant" stock -- see pages 18 and 91 of Fortress of the Stone Giants.

One final bit of evidence pointing to the existence of "true giants" on Golarion is the creation myths of the various giant races. "The history of the stone giants is almost entirely a history of tribal rivalries, followed by the rise of the many other giant races. The taiga giants, hill giants, and stone giants remain tightly bound by what is largely a shared history, faith, and culture" (page 53, Fortress of the Stone Giants); "While non-giants know them as taiga giants, among their own tribes they call themselves “Urganta,” the word in the Giant language for “People.” This name stems from their ancient stories—largely reinforced by the studies of modern scholars [emphasis mine] —that suggest taiga giants were among the first giants to inhabit Golarion and that many, if not all, of the giants of the continent of Avistan are descended from this race" (page 85, Fortress of the Stone Giants).

This would indicate that at least the taiga giants and modern Golarion scholars believe in the notion of "true giant"-hood, and even have a name for it: "Urganta".

--Nizos

It's not really enough to base an article around. Urganta is simply a word in the giant language. We know what it translates as, how some specific tribes use it, but there is no indication that it has any special meaning beyond this. It's not our place to extrapolate or speculate upon what is or isn't provided within the source material. We connect threads of information from one source to the next, but only those that are provided. This would be an example of taking what is provided, expanding upon it, and authoring new lore, which is something that we do not do.

Essentially, to be included in this project something has to be spelled out by Paizo in black and white. There is no reading between the lines for additional meaning. That said, you've dug up a lot of great information for articles on specific giant types, and there's no reason not to include it where relevant. For example, it should be mentioned somewhere that taiga giants refer to themselves as Urganta, and that some believe them to be the first giant race.

I agree that there is something special about giants. I imagine my fondness for the creatures is similar to your own, and I enjoy using them not only in the games I run, but jump at the chance to encounter them as a player. But until what makes them special is provided in an official source, clarified and quantified, it has no place here. And, ironically, if someone did attempt this, I believe it would ultimately detract from the grandeur of the creatures. -- Heaven's Agent 15:54, 28 November 2010 (UTC)

Hmm, "[Taiga stories], largely reinforced by studies of modern scholars [that] many, if not all, of the giants of the continent of Avistan are descended from [the Taiga giants]." Directly from Paizo source. Please let me know how I'm reading between the lines here? Pages 85 and 90 are non-ambiguous and spelled out in clear black and white, without giant lovin' interpretation :-)

--Nizos

Exactly. That's the sort of information that should be incorporated into the article about taiga giants. It elaborates on the beliefs of their culture, and is an ideal element for such an article. That said, it is not concrete source information about giants in general, not even from an in-world standpoint. It does not state that other giant races are descended from taiga giants, only that taiga giants beliefs themselves to be the origin of other giant races. It does not state that taiga giants are absolutely accepted as the progenitors of giant races by Golarion's scholars, only that these claims are supported by some of Golarion's modern researchers.

The text is provided in clear black and white, but we have to be careful not to take the words out of context, something that can be done very easily in this instance. We can't read any deeper than the actual words that are printed themselves. -- Heaven's Agent 23:55, 28 November 2010 (UTC)

Yeah, I agree it isn't definitive. Guess I'll have to wait for James Jacobs to officially weigh in on this someday! I'll update the taiga article with the teaser. Yoda, perhaps you could elbow James in the office tomorrow and ask him when Giants Revisited is going to be official!

Nizos

I'm not in the office tomorrow, and elbowing James isn't a good idea, as he's my default catsitter. I think your best bet to get his attention is to make a thread about it on the Campaign Setting section of the messageboards. —Yoda8myhead 04:25, 29 November 2010 (UTC)

If it helps your efforts, I'd buy the book. -- Heaven's Agent 04:49, 29 November 2010 (UTC)