Meta:Axis

From PathfinderWiki

Retcon

Formians have been referred to in various ways regarding Axis: as its rulers (The Great Beyond), its natives (Tide of Honor), instrumental to the city's defense through their alliance with gigas (Shadow of the Storm Tyrant), and absent from descriptions of the city (Planar Adventures).

In direct potential conflict are three Tier 1 sources:

  • Their role in Shadow of the Storm Tyrant, which explicitly refers to them as "the formians of Axis" on p73
  • Their presence in the Irori article of Tide of Honor which explicitly refers to "Axis's native inevitables and formians" on p69, which was reprinted in Inner Sea Gods p91
  • A combination of their absence from descriptions of Axis in Planar Adventures and a clarification by James Jacobs stating that this omission is both intentional and indicative of a retcon removing them from the city (emphasis mine):
“

As of this hardcover, the formians are no longer a major presence in Axis, and haven't really had a major presence there since we moved out of 3.5 content into Pathfinder stuff.

There's still plenty of non-outsider life in the Great Beyond, but formians in Axis aren't part of it.

”

Unpublished canon clarifications from Paizo staff on messageboards are a Tier 3 source. Because Planar Adventures does not explicitly state that formians are not part of Axis, we have an apparently unresolvable conflict—we do not have a newer Tier 1 source that explicitly states that formians are not native to or present in Axis, and therefore could not have aided in Axis's defense against chaotic forces.

For now, the mention of formians as described in Shadow of the Storm Tyrant remains. See also Talk:Inevitable. (merged below) -Oznogon (talk) 04:58, 26 November 2018 (UTC)

Relevant forums statements

Thanks to HTD for collating these.

“

In the 3.5 era, we used the Monster Manual from Wizards of the Coast, and as such were bound to choices they made for monsters that we didn't really 100% agree with.

In the Pathfinder era, we got to make those choices ourselves.

There can still be formians on the outer planes, just as there can be humans or elks or aboleths or snakes on the outer planes. But in Pathfinder, formians are monstrous humanoids. Those on Axis might have the Extraplanar trait when visiting the Material Plane, or might even be axiomatic creatures... but they're as detailed in Bestiary 4 as an example.

”
“

Since formians are now not outsiders (we chose to go back to their real-world pulp roots as aliens), them having a major role on Axis makes less sense. If we do decide to keep them there the next time we do anything there in print, the formians there will likely become axiomatic formians or something like that... but there's just as good a chance we'll just retcon them out of Axis entirely, sicne their role there hasn't really been built upon.

”
“

As of this hardcover, the formians are no longer a major presence in Axis, and haven't really had a major presence there since we moved out of 3.5 content into Pathfinder stuff.

There's still plenty of non-outsider life in the Great Beyond, but formians in Axis aren't part of it.

”
“

Quick note about formians—in Golarion, they're aliens, not outsiders. The formians that exist on Axis are going to likely become axiomatic formians or some other templated type of creature, but they're not going to be "the original formians" and as such are, in the grand scheme of Axis's history, relative newcomers.

”
More information to come eventually."
“

9) In the real world, the formians were invented as creatures in a series of pulp stories that live on Venus. For Pahtfinder, we pay homage to that by NOT making them outsiders. As far as I'm concerned, yes, they're natives to Castrovel, although I'm not sure we've nailed that down as such in print.

”
Prior discussion follows

Formians do not appear anywhere in Axis in post-3.5E material, and it has been stated multiple times on the forum by developers that there's a retcon: they are no longer outsiders or have any major presence in Axis. I think their mention here is not quite appropriate, but I don't know for sure how I should remove it. - HTD (talk) 00:30, 26 November 2018 (UTC)

Instructions for dealing with canon conflicts are on the Canon policy.
“

In the case of an irreconcilable conflict between sources, the source from the most authoritative tier should be given preference (in the case of an intra-tier conflict, the most recently published source should be used, excepting extenuating circumstances or consensus to the contrary). However, in all cases is that valid sources should be construed so as not to be in conflict. The presumption should be that a conflict does not exist unless no other explanation is reasonable under the circumstances.

In the event of a conflict, the {{Conflict}} template should be used, and notes regarding the resolution of the conflict should be made on the article's talk subpage linked to by the dagger symbol created by the Conflict template (such as Talk:Absalom/Conflicts).

”
Can you link to the forum sources explaining this conflict's resolution? -Oznogon (talk) 02:00, 26 November 2018 (UTC)
[1], [2] and [3] (as well as some others that I probably missed). This looks like a rather complicated case, so I didn't edit the page outright just yet. - HTD (talk) 04:21, 26 November 2018 (UTC)
Thanks. In this context, this is simple enough to resolve with a more general, non-conflicting statement. The focus is on inevitables; listing specific parties to the agreement from TGB is less necessary. -Oznogon (talk) 04:28, 26 November 2018 (UTC)
On further research, formians do appear in Axis in post-3.5 content, in Shadow of the Storm Tyrant as bringing gigas to Axis's defense, and in articles about Irori in Jade Regent (adventure path) and Inner Sea Gods. Since this is not relevant to inevitables, there's no need to rehash for these purposes. See also Talk:Axis/Conflicts, created to capture this conflict-by-absence, which we do not have a clear policy to resolve. -Oznogon (talk) 05:05, 26 November 2018 (UTC)

Don't follow policy off a cliff. -PDV (talk) 11:08, 30 November 2018 This comment was left as a summary of an edit deleting a canon conflict. Please discuss topics on Talk pages.

This is a wiki, not a cliffside; nobody is being harmed by a reference to conflicting information. Please discuss deletions before performing them. -Oznogon (talk) 23:10, 30 November 2018 (UTC)
User:PDV feels strongly enough about this to edit-war with administrators over it, so I'll mark as resolved. The conflict flag should still stand since the text of the wiki as it stands now contradicts the cited source. -Oznogon (talk) 02:27, 25 December 2018 (UTC)

With how the formians of Axis have been retconned out of existence, I think it is safe to assume that the formian hives and similar locations (as presented in The Great Beyond, A Guide to the Multiverse) have been excised from canon as well. Therefore, they have been commented out. -HTD (talk) 14:30, 27 June 2019 (UTC)

Unincorporated sources

Retrieved from "https://pathfinderwiki.com/w/index.php?title=Meta:Axis&oldid=483669"