Portal talk:Religion/Pantheons

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Another Reordering/Re-categorization?

There's a lot of changes I'd like to make to this page, but I'm uncertain if I should implement a big restructure (and have doubts about how to actually fix things up).

I feel like there should be more of a differention paid to which deities on the list are full-on Gods (Unstatted, 5 Domains), which are Demigods (CR 20+, usually but not necessarily 26-30, 4 domains), which are Quasi-Deities (CR below 25, 4 or fewer domains), and which don't have a known status yet. I think that would make it more useful when searching for particular types of gods. I want to do that without breaking the usefulness of the pantheon sections, though. Would it be better to list the deities by status within their pantheons? Would it be better to have a category for each pantheon under the full deities section and then a second category for it under demigods? Should the pantheons stay as-is but there be sections added to categorize all the full-gods, all the demigods, and all the quasi-deities by divine status? I'm not sure how best to move things around, so I made a list of my notes on what is sitting where and what category it falls under.

Going down the list:

Inner Sea Religion-

Okay

Dragon Empires-

Okay

Osirian Pantheon-

Okay

Vudran Pantheon-

Arundhat, Chamidu, Diomazul, Gruhastha, Lahkgya, Likha, Ragdya, Raumya, Suyuddha, Vasaghati, Vineshvakhi -> In main pantheon section, but unclear if full-gods or demigods

Ashukharma, Matravash, Omrataji -> Missing from pantheon section, but demigods

Cloud Sisters, Dinehdal -> Missing from pantheon section, but of unknown divine status

Dhalavei, Irori -> The only confirmed full-gods in the pantheon, okay where they are

Vritra -> In the pantheon section, but an Asura Rana demigod

Other Minor Deities-

Achaekek, Besmara, Camazotz, Groetus, Lissala, Milani, Sivanah, Zyphus -> Full-gods, belong here

Alseta, Brigh, Hanspur, Kitumu, Naderi -> Demigods, go down in the Demigod section

Azghat -> Not even deities; this is the Runelords being worshipped. They seem like they belong down with Razmir in the 'Other Faiths' section

Child-goddess, Namzaruuum, White Feather -> Unconfirmed divine status, possibly full-gods, possibly demigods, possibly quasi-deities, possibly not even divine

Gyronna -> Already in the Hag Pantheon section, also a demigod

Pulura -> Angel Empyreal Lord demigod, already in that section

Rheth, Roidira -> Unconfirmed divine status, possibly full-gods, possibly demigods

Shimye-Magalla -> Amalgam of two existing deities, possibly should go in some section somewhere with the Godclaw

Walkena -> Quasi-deity

Minor Deities Section:

  • Generally seems to include a lot of demigods in the pantheons (but isn't complete when doing so). Also includes some duplicates with other categories.

Draconic Pantheon-

Okay

Dwarven Pantheon-

Angradd, Bolka, Dranngvit, Folgrit, Grundinnar, Kols, Magrim, Trudd -> Demigods

Droskar, Torag -> Full deities, okay

Elven Pantheon-

Okay

Giant Pantheons-

Aegirran, Bergelmir, Haggakal, Skode, Skrymir, Thremyr, Tjasse -> Demigods

Ancestral Spirits -> These are weird. I think they got almost drop-retconned into an Oracle Mystery? Possibly belong in some other section on spirit worship along with the Morlock Ancestor Spirits? They've got 5 domains like a full-deity, but they're a collective group instead of a singular being. Could probably also use a more-descriptive page name since the Morlocks have some too.

Dagon, Kostchtchie, Urxehl -> Demon Lord demigods

Estig/Erastil, Ioz'Om/Gozreh, Syriss/Shelyn, Tourithia/Gozreh -> Redirects from giant versions of their names. Might not go here? Might go here? Already in the 'major deities' category. Just here because of the name-redirect?

Fandarra, Minderhal, Urazra, Zursvaater -> Full-deities, okay

Gozreh, Gorum, Nethys, Norgorber, Robagug -> Already in the major deities section. Yes, some giants worship them, but so do a lot of other things. I lean toward removing them since Calistria isn't in the elf section.

Perbog, Prathos -> Unconfirmed divine status, possibly full-gods, possibly demigods

Gnome Deity-

The only entry here is a demigod

Goblin Hero-Gods-

All demigods

Hag Deities-

Alazhra, Gyronna -> Demigods

Mestama -> Demon Lord demigod

Halfling Deities-

Both demigods

Other Non-Human Deities-

Ahriman, Easivra -> Demigod

Morlock Ancestor Gods -> Links to the page on morlocks instead of a page on the ancestor gods. Probably goes down in the Spirit Worship section.

Prathos -> Already in the giant section, Unconfirmed divine status, possibly a full god, possibly a demigod

Shumbauth -> Quite possibly a Veiled Master instead of a god, probably goes in some other category

Ydersius -> Full-god, okay

Demigods Section:

Individual Demigods-

Feronia -> Demigod, okay

Ghlaunder, Kurgess -> Got converted into full-deities at some point along the line, belong up in the section above instead of the demigod section

Archdevils-

Okay

Infernal Dukes-

Okay

Malebranche-

I think these may count as quasi-deities instead of demigods

Whore Queens-

Okay

Other Divine Beings Of Hell-

Possibly not demigods, Possibly quasi-deities or full-deities (albeit unlikely)

Asura Ranas-

Okay

Demon Lords-

Okay

Nascent Demon Lords-

I think these may count as quasi-deities instead of demigods

Qlippoth Lords-

Okay

Eldest-

Okay

Elemental Lords-

Okay

Agathion Empyreal Lords-

Okay

Angel Empyreal Lords-

Okay

Archon Empyreal Lords-

Okay

Azata Empyreal Lords-

Okay

Other Empyreal Lords and Their Cults-

Okay

Other Divine Beings from the Planes of Good-

Possibly not demigods, Possibly quasi-deities or full-deities (albeit unlikely)

Great Old Ones-

Okay

Four Horsemen or Archdaemons-

Oinodaemon is possibly a full deity and not a Demigod

Harbingers-

Okay

Iron Gods of Numeria-

They're quasi-deities during the AP, but Unity/Casandalee may become a full demigod at the end of it?

Kyton Demagogues-

Okay

Manasaputra Kumaras-

Okay

Oni Daimyo-

Okay

Protean Lords-

Speakers of the Depths are possibly a full deity and not a Demigod

Psychopomp Ushers-

Okay

Rakshasa Immortals-

Okay

Sahkil Tormentors-

Nameless is linking to the wrong page, but presentation on this page is okay

Dead Deities-

  • I feel like on some level it'd be more useful to put the ones here that go in categories (i.e. Demon Lord) as secondary entries under their categories (i.e. 'Dead Demon Lords') instead of grouped here (particularly if we get around to putting in all the ones Nocticula killed to make The Midnight Isles). I'm not entirely convinced that's the right choice, though, and maybe they should just all stay here.

Acavna, Amaznen, Aroden, Curchanus, Ihys -> Dead deities, Correctly here

Aolar, Ibdurengian, Mharah, Vyriavaxus, Xar-Azmak -> Demon Lords, Correctly identified as dead

Arazni -> Undead and still doing stuff, currently a quasi-deity

Azhia -> On the verge of death and imprisioned, but not actually dead

Azulos, Drulaema, Horeksim, Lyutheria, Ortaro, Roshmolem, Yrsinius -> I'm just going to assume these are okay for now. I'm seeing some names of some Horsemen I know are dead there and then some others I don't recognize.

Eternal Emperor -> Not confirmed as dead, Not confirmed as an actual deity either, Possibly a giant idol, Possibly a spirit, Possibly a deity

Lissala -> Not dead, already in a section above

Peacock Spirit -> I don't think we have enough info here to call it as dead or anything else in particular

Shrine of the Failed -> They never became deities, but I agree this is a good place to put the entry

Typhon -> Archdevil, Correctly identified as dead

Spirit Worship-

Feels like it should have the Ancestor spirits from the Giants and the Morlocks down here as specific entries

Other Faiths-

Okay

Philosophies-

Okay

Missing from the list:

  • The Hero-Gods from Iblydos are quasi-deities that aren't on the list
  • Idols probably go on here somewhere too. There's three of them so far. I *think* they count as Quasi-deities but am not positive.
  • The Axiomite Godmind feels like it should be on here with the other uncategorized deities of unclear divine status


Help/thoughts would be appreciated.

--Lord Gadigan 2:52, 31 December 2015 (EST)

I feel like there should be more of a differention paid to which deities on the list are full-on Gods (Unstatted, 5 Domains), which are Demigods (CR 20+, usually but not necessarily 26-30, 4 domains), which are Quasi-Deities (CR below 25, 4 or fewer domains), and which don't have a known status yet.
I don't see demigods defined this way in Inner Sea Gods. Can you point me to where this distinction is made?
I think that would make it more useful when searching for particular types of gods. I want to do that without breaking the usefulness of the pantheon sections, though.
I'd rather see us get the categories and navboxes consistent first before changing the portal. If we make consistent categories for pantheons where every relevant divine entity has an article, we can then autogenerate many of the lists we'd use to build the portal and navboxes, like this list of Vudran minor deities:
{{Flatlist|
{{#dpl:
| category=Minor deities
| category=Vudran pantheon
| namespace= <!-- blank = main -->
| ordermethod=sortkey
| order=ascending
}}
}}
That means we should either categorize the gods in lists like "Inner Sea pantheon" with an appropriate category, or cut them from the portal. The obvious exception is where the relevant articles don't exist yet, but it would be easier to maintain and reuse those lists as templates, not directly on the portal itself, and should still (IMO—up for debate) be consistent with how we categorize them.
The rest of this proposal is so incredibly extensive that it should probably be a project with a forum thread. It's buried on the talk page of a subpage of a portal. -Oznogon (talk) 12:28, 31 December 2015 (UTC)
Looks like my definition was off; Infernal Dukes being theoretically both above CR25 and below it confused me. Demigods are apparently always CR25-30 with 4 domains.
https://paizo.com/threads/rzs2l7ns&page=819?Ask-James-Jacobs-ALL-your-Questions-Here#40913
"A quasi-deity is someone who has the power to grant spells, but has one or more of the following:
  1. Grants fewer than 4 domains, AND/OR..
  1. Is CR 25 or lower. This one means that for most PCs, who at 20th level and tier 10 are essentially CR 24, getting into demigod level requires something more than simply maxing out your level and tiers.
If you DO grant 4 domains AND you're CR 26 or higher, you're a demigod."
Noted on the forum thread thing. I'm posting this here to clear up my earlier statement so it isn't floating around being incorrect.
--Lord Gadigan 2:52, 31 December 2015 (EST)

Reordering

May I suggest this page has a bit of a reordering please? This is such a key page I do not want to plough into this without getting some approval first and maybe this has been debated before too.

Main sections:

GODS

Major Gods (including our favourite twenty)

Minor Gods (within pantheons as much as possible as minor sections, then a miscellaneous grouping last)

Demigods

Non-Human Gods (by alphabetical order of pantheon)

Dead Gods


LORDS OF THE GREAT BEYOND (I do not think empyreal lords, archdevils and their ilk are gods: they should not be classed as minor gods, but have a section in their own right. Lamashtu and Asmodeus are called out as very special that they have achieved deity status)


PHILOSOPHIES (non-theistic ways of life)

This would also mean a change to the feeder categories I think so, in effect, checking the Category assignations at the bottom of each deity. --Fleanetha 14:12, 10 December 2010 (UTC)

This suggested update has in effect been achieved.--Fleanetha 09:00, 28 May 2012 (UTC)

Portal Problems May 2012

This page is really thinned down - lots has gone missing - but the history is one line. Yoda8myhead where is the latest version? Which other pages are back level - we should flag them now before they are forgotten.--Fleanetha 14:39, 25 May 2012 (UTC)

Problem sorted by Yoda8myhead.--Fleanetha 08:25, 28 May 2012 (UTC)