Portal talk:Religion/Pantheons
Another Reordering/Re-categorization?
There's a lot of changes I'd like to make to this page, but I'm uncertain if I should implement a big restructure (and have doubts about how to actually fix things up).
I feel like there should be more of a differention paid to which deities on the list are full-on Gods (Unstatted, 5 Domains), which are Demigods (CR 20+, usually but not necessarily 26-30, 4 domains), which are Quasi-Deities (CR below 25, 4 or fewer domains), and which don't have a known status yet. I think that would make it more useful when searching for particular types of gods. I want to do that without breaking the usefulness of the pantheon sections, though. Would it be better to list the deities by status within their pantheons? Would it be better to have a category for each pantheon under the full deities section and then a second category for it under demigods? Should the pantheons stay as-is but there be sections added to categorize all the full-gods, all the demigods, and all the quasi-deities by divine status? I'm not sure how best to move things around, so I made a list of my notes on what is sitting where and what category it falls under.
Going down the list:
Inner Sea Religion-
Okay
Dragon Empires-
Okay
Osirian Pantheon-
Okay
Vudran Pantheon-
Arundhat, Chamidu, Diomazul, Gruhastha, Lahkgya, Likha, Ragdya, Raumya, Suyuddha, Vasaghati, Vineshvakhi -> In main pantheon section, but unclear if full-gods or demigods
Ashukharma, Matravash, Omrataji -> Missing from pantheon section, but demigods
Cloud Sisters, Dinehdal -> Missing from pantheon section, but of unknown divine status
Dhalavei, Irori -> The only confirmed full-gods in the pantheon, okay where they are
Vritra -> In the pantheon section, but an Asura Rana demigod
Other Minor Deities-
Achaekek, Besmara, Camazotz, Groetus, Lissala, Milani, Sivanah, Zyphus -> Full-gods, belong here
Alseta, Brigh, Hanspur, Kitumu, Naderi -> Demigods, go down in the Demigod section
Azghat -> Not even deities; this is the Runelords being worshipped. They seem like they belong down with Razmir in the 'Other Faiths' section
Child-goddess, Namzaruuum, White Feather -> Unconfirmed divine status, possibly full-gods, possibly demigods, possibly quasi-deities, possibly not even divine
Gyronna -> Already in the Hag Pantheon section, also a demigod
Pulura -> Angel Empyreal Lord demigod, already in that section
Rheth, Roidira -> Unconfirmed divine status, possibly full-gods, possibly demigods
Shimye-Magalla -> Amalgam of two existing deities, possibly should go in some section somewhere with the Godclaw
Walkena -> Quasi-deity
Minor Deities Section:
- Generally seems to include a lot of demigods in the pantheons (but isn't complete when doing so). Also includes some duplicates with other categories.
Draconic Pantheon-
Okay
Dwarven Pantheon-
Angradd, Bolka, Dranngvit, Folgrit, Grundinnar, Kols, Magrim, Trudd -> Demigods
Droskar, Torag -> Full deities, okay
Elven Pantheon-
Okay
Giant Pantheons-
Aegirran, Bergelmir, Haggakal, Skode, Skrymir, Thremyr, Tjasse -> Demigods
Ancestral Spirits -> These are weird. I think they got almost drop-retconned into an Oracle Mystery? Possibly belong in some other section on spirit worship along with the Morlock Ancestor Spirits? They've got 5 domains like a full-deity, but they're a collective group instead of a singular being. Could probably also use a more-descriptive page name since the Morlocks have some too.
Dagon, Kostchtchie, Urxehl -> Demon Lord demigods
Estig/Erastil, Ioz'Om/Gozreh, Syriss/Shelyn, Tourithia/Gozreh -> Redirects from giant versions of their names. Might not go here? Might go here? Already in the 'major deities' category. Just here because of the name-redirect?
Fandarra, Minderhal, Urazra, Zursvaater -> Full-deities, okay
Gozreh, Gorum, Nethys, Norgorber, Robagug -> Already in the major deities section. Yes, some giants worship them, but so do a lot of other things. I lean toward removing them since Calistria isn't in the elf section.
Perbog, Prathos -> Unconfirmed divine status, possibly full-gods, possibly demigods
Gnome Deity-
The only entry here is a demigod
Goblin Hero-Gods-
All demigods
Hag Deities-
Alazhra, Gyronna -> Demigods
Mestama -> Demon Lord demigod
Halfling Deities-
Both demigods
Other Non-Human Deities-
Ahriman, Easivra -> Demigod
Morlock Ancestor Gods -> Links to the page on morlocks instead of a page on the ancestor gods. Probably goes down in the Spirit Worship section.
Prathos -> Already in the giant section, Unconfirmed divine status, possibly a full god, possibly a demigod
Shumbauth -> Quite possibly a Veiled Master instead of a god, probably goes in some other category
Ydersius -> Full-god, okay
Demigods Section:
Individual Demigods-
Feronia -> Demigod, okay
Ghlaunder, Kurgess -> Got converted into full-deities at some point along the line, belong up in the section above instead of the demigod section
Archdevils-
Okay
Infernal Dukes-
Okay
Malebranche-
I think these may count as quasi-deities instead of demigods
Whore Queens-
Okay
Other Divine Beings Of Hell-
Possibly not demigods, Possibly quasi-deities or full-deities (albeit unlikely)
Asura Ranas-
Okay
Demon Lords-
Okay
Nascent Demon Lords-
I think these may count as quasi-deities instead of demigods
Qlippoth Lords-
Okay
Eldest-
Okay
Elemental Lords-
Okay
Agathion Empyreal Lords-
Okay
Angel Empyreal Lords-
Okay
Archon Empyreal Lords-
Okay
Azata Empyreal Lords-
Okay
Other Empyreal Lords and Their Cults-
Okay
Other Divine Beings from the Planes of Good-
Possibly not demigods, Possibly quasi-deities or full-deities (albeit unlikely)
Great Old Ones-
Okay
Four Horsemen or Archdaemons-
Oinodaemon is possibly a full deity and not a Demigod
Harbingers-
Okay
Iron Gods of Numeria-
They're quasi-deities during the AP, but Unity/Casandalee may become a full demigod at the end of it?
Kyton Demagogues-
Okay
Manasaputra Kumaras-
Okay
Oni Daimyo-
Okay
Protean Lords-
Speakers of the Depths are possibly a full deity and not a Demigod
Psychopomp Ushers-
Okay
Rakshasa Immortals-
Okay
Sahkil Tormentors-
Nameless is linking to the wrong page, but presentation on this page is okay
Dead Deities-
- I feel like on some level it'd be more useful to put the ones here that go in categories (i.e. Demon Lord) as secondary entries under their categories (i.e. 'Dead Demon Lords') instead of grouped here (particularly if we get around to putting in all the ones Nocticula killed to make The Midnight Isles). I'm not entirely convinced that's the right choice, though, and maybe they should just all stay here.
Acavna, Amaznen, Aroden, Curchanus, Ihys -> Dead deities, Correctly here
Aolar, Ibdurengian, Mharah, Vyriavaxus, Xar-Azmak -> Demon Lords, Correctly identified as dead
Arazni -> Undead and still doing stuff, currently a quasi-deity
Azhia -> On the verge of death and imprisioned, but not actually dead
Azulos, Drulaema, Horeksim, Lyutheria, Ortaro, Roshmolem, Yrsinius -> I'm just going to assume these are okay for now. I'm seeing some names of some Horsemen I know are dead there and then some others I don't recognize.
Eternal Emperor -> Not confirmed as dead, Not confirmed as an actual deity either, Possibly a giant idol, Possibly a spirit, Possibly a deity
Lissala -> Not dead, already in a section above
Peacock Spirit -> I don't think we have enough info here to call it as dead or anything else in particular
Shrine of the Failed -> They never became deities, but I agree this is a good place to put the entry
Typhon -> Archdevil, Correctly identified as dead
Spirit Worship-
Feels like it should have the Ancestor spirits from the Giants and the Morlocks down here as specific entries
Other Faiths-
Okay
Philosophies-
Okay
Missing from the list:
- The Hero-Gods from Iblydos are quasi-deities that aren't on the list
- Idols probably go on here somewhere too. There's three of them so far. I *think* they count as Quasi-deities but am not positive.
- The Axiomite Godmind feels like it should be on here with the other uncategorized deities of unclear divine status
Help/thoughts would be appreciated.
--Lord Gadigan 2:52, 31 December 2015 (EST)
I feel like there should be more of a differention paid to which deities on the list are full-on Gods (Unstatted, 5 Domains), which are Demigods (CR 20+, usually but not necessarily 26-30, 4 domains), which are Quasi-Deities (CR below 25, 4 or fewer domains), and which don't have a known status yet.
- I don't see demigods defined this way in Inner Sea Gods. Can you point me to where this distinction is made?
I think that would make it more useful when searching for particular types of gods. I want to do that without breaking the usefulness of the pantheon sections, though.
- I'd rather see us get the categories and navboxes consistent first before changing the portal. If we make consistent categories for pantheons where every relevant divine entity has an article, we can then autogenerate many of the lists we'd use to build the portal and navboxes, like this list of Vudran minor deities:
{{Flatlist|
{{#dpl:
| category=Minor deities
| category=Vudran pantheon
| namespace= <!-- blank = main -->
| ordermethod=sortkey
| order=ascending
}}
}}
- That means we should either categorize the gods in lists like "Inner Sea pantheon" with an appropriate category, or cut them from the portal. The obvious exception is where the relevant articles don't exist yet, but it would be easier to maintain and reuse those lists as templates, not directly on the portal itself, and should still (IMO—up for debate) be consistent with how we categorize them.
- The rest of this proposal is so incredibly extensive that it should probably be a project with a forum thread. It's buried on the talk page of a subpage of a portal. -Oznogon (talk) 12:28, 31 December 2015 (UTC)
- Looks like my definition was off; Infernal Dukes being theoretically both above CR25 and below it confused me. Demigods are apparently always CR25-30 with 4 domains.
- "A quasi-deity is someone who has the power to grant spells, but has one or more of the following:
- Grants fewer than 4 domains, AND/OR..
- Is CR 25 or lower. This one means that for most PCs, who at 20th level and tier 10 are essentially CR 24, getting into demigod level requires something more than simply maxing out your level and tiers.
- If you DO grant 4 domains AND you're CR 26 or higher, you're a demigod."
- Noted on the forum thread thing. I'm posting this here to clear up my earlier statement so it isn't floating around being incorrect.
- --Lord Gadigan 2:52, 31 December 2015 (EST)
Reordering
May I suggest this page has a bit of a reordering please? This is such a key page I do not want to plough into this without getting some approval first and maybe this has been debated before too.
Main sections:
GODS
Major Gods (including our favourite twenty)
Minor Gods (within pantheons as much as possible as minor sections, then a miscellaneous grouping last)
Demigods
Non-Human Gods (by alphabetical order of pantheon)
Dead Gods
LORDS OF THE GREAT BEYOND (I do not think empyreal lords, archdevils and their ilk are gods: they should not be classed as minor gods, but have a section in their own right. Lamashtu and Asmodeus are called out as very special that they have achieved deity status)
PHILOSOPHIES (non-theistic ways of life)
This would also mean a change to the feeder categories I think so, in effect, checking the Category assignations at the bottom of each deity. --Fleanetha 14:12, 10 December 2010 (UTC)
- This suggested update has in effect been achieved.--Fleanetha 09:00, 28 May 2012 (UTC)
Portal Problems May 2012
This page is really thinned down - lots has gone missing - but the history is one line. Yoda8myhead where is the latest version? Which other pages are back level - we should flag them now before they are forgotten.--Fleanetha 14:39, 25 May 2012 (UTC)
- Problem sorted by Yoda8myhead.--Fleanetha 08:25, 28 May 2012 (UTC)
Restructuring
I boldly reorganized the portal to use Template:Deities list so we can have fewer potentially conflicting lists of deities floating around here, in navboxes, and on articles. In the process I de-emphasized organizing by power level, which is less relevant in Pathfinder Second Edition. IMO the new organization is more tied to the setting than mechanics, which I understand is not a requirement for Portals.
To make up for this somewhat, I added inline category trees for Category:Religion and Category:Deities. The latter provides access to deities as categorized by power level if needed, to the points in prior discussions about improving such categorization. (This also surfaces 2E domain categories, which the portal still does not do.)
I understand that this might be a step too far, too fast. If this is reverted, I'll continue working on it in userspace as the consolidation of these lists is sorely needed either way. -Oznogon (talk) 05:56, 17 January 2024 (UTC)