Talk:God caller

Eidolon?

I think this article needs some statement adding please from someone who is up to speed with this concept about god callers and their relationship / similarity / equivalence to eidolons. Currently, a once eidolon-dominated article has a single, isolated sentence at the very end under False gods with no context. The eidolon page does not link to god caller either. If there is no link in 2E, we should document that in the references to avoid confusion as they were linked in 1E. --Fleanetha (talk) 12:38, 9 November 2024 (UTC)

The only mentions of God Callers in Secrets of Magic are as an example of someone who might use a Beast Eidolon (pg 61) and as a complete Sample Summoner (pg 72). Their sole mention in War of Immortals is pure lore about their activities during said event. I'd take this as pretty strong evidence that a God Caller is a Summoner and their associated God is their Eidolon. Volfied (talk) 13:02, 9 November 2024 (UTC)

Having reviewed the History of the article, it seems Oznogon removed the references to summoners and eidolons less than a week ago on the basis of it being crunch. There has been discussion in the Discord server about the matter of classes being crunch or not and Yoda8myhead came down on the side of classes being parallel concepts in-universe and out, Oz disagreed. Given that the matter is somewhat contentious and I am a bit player here, I'm going to leave this as is and let someone else make the call. Volfied (talk)

Well, we trust Oz and I don't understand this area, so I'll put in a simple two-way connection and leave it at that for now. --Fleanetha (talk) 15:21, 9 November 2024 (UTC)

If I had removed those details solely on "the basis of crunch", I would have stated as much. I did not. Please do not attribute sentiments to me that I did not assert in this specific context, especially without my consent or without notifying me of your helpful attempt to do so.

In revision 538458 on 3 Nov, User:Stejo attempted to redefine god callers in a way that appeared to be internally contradictory and unsupported by the additional cited source of Bestiary 3 by wedging in a mention to spirit guides, though Stejo's incorrect usage of English made it difficult to determine whether this was intentional, or what the intended change should be.

However, while revising the article to reconcile these errors, I noted that Bestiary 3's spirit guides entry does expand the canon definition of what a god caller can bind to beyond eidolons. Spirit guides lack any mechanics of 2E eidolons, are not referred to as eidolons in canon texts, are described as having properties incompatible with canon descriptions of eidolons, and which can bind to non-summoner mortals.

Further research noted that They Watched the Stars reinforced this, and appeared to retroactively define modern god calling practices by describing the first modern god caller Domora Hume as being bound to Dyzad, a "spirit guide" from the Plane of Water, and Hume's students and successors as also binding with spirit guides. They Watched the Stars never uses the term "eidolon" despite describing the history of modern god calling in depth.

The inclusion of Alglenweis, a deity and daughter of the now-legacy demon lord Kostchtchie, in the list of Sarkorian gods on Gods & Magic 132 as referenced by the god caller article on 95 further complicates potential definitions of a Sarkorian god.

To assume no conflict, the assertions of older sources suggesting that god calling was inherently tied or limited to mechanically defined summoners and eidolons must be disregarded to accommodate the expanded definitions that exclude or are in direct conflict with them. Since it also appeares that Paizo has expanded, and will likely continue to change or expand, both the mechanical and in-universe definitions of what a Sarkorian god is, it seemed prudent to not strictly define it in the wiki's point of view either—and especially to avoid any associations with class-, edition-, or revision-specific mechanical language.

The compromise I settled on was therefore to describe god callers generically, in the least conflicting manner and with the fewest dependencies on mechanics. The sole consistent and defining traits of god callers is that they are people of Sarkorian traditions who are bound to entities of a spiritual nature, that the tradition is defined exclusively by Sarkorians, and that the modern practices of this tradition are at least in part derived from Domora; all other details from past sources are at best included by a generic definition and at worst internally contradictory. Such a generic definition can include eidolons, spirit guides of any generation or definition, "water spirits", daughters of demon lords, and any other similar entity that Paizo might decide to bind to a Sarkorian hero.

Feel free to expand this to include or restore mechanical definitions of what a Sarkorian god might be, minding that there is no precise mechanical definition to base that on that is also congruent with They Watched the Stars. I'm not interested in doing that, nor am I interested in making any other changes to wiki content unrelated to the mapping project or participating in discussions from Discord, which is why I exited the referenced Discord server and have noted as of 4-5 Nov on my own user and user talk pages that I'm no longer active on this wiki for subjects unrelated to the mapping project. -Oznogon (talk) 06:37, 10 November 2024 (UTC)