Talk:Ascended

Classifying non-Starstone ascended deities/demigods

Off the top of my head, we have Gyronna, Hanspur, and Nivi Rhombodazzle and mortals who became at least demigods, and Nocticula as a demon lord who became a deity. I'm pretty sure there are others I'm forgetting. Should they be lumped in with Starstone-ascended mortals? -Oznogon (talk) 00:20, 11 December 2018 (UTC)

Are there any sources that refer to them as Ascended (with a capital A) (which seems to be the subject of the article right now)? - HTD (talk) 01:23, 11 December 2018 (UTC)

Nethys and Irori both also became gods through means other than the Test of the Starstone. There are actually a lot of them, but I don't think they've ever been grouped in an official grouping like "Ascended", though I could be wrong on that— Yoda8myhead (talk) 02:23, 11 December 2018 (UTC)

Divine Anthology features The Majestic Book of the Prime Ascended on our four "Ascended" gods and Irori. Text in DA not referring to this book lowercases "ascended" when referring to these five, but does consistently refer to all five as "ascended" and includes a bunch of class features that refers to them as title-cased "Prime Ascended". -Oznogon (talk) 05:04, 12 December 2018 (UTC)

Dungeoneer's Handbook refers to only three deities as "Ascended": Cayden Cailean, Norgorber, and Iomedae. -Oznogon (talk) 05:04, 12 December 2018 (UTC)

Faiths of Purity uses "Ascended" to refer specifically to Starstone graduates. -Oznogon (talk) 05:04, 12 December 2018 (UTC)

Children of the Void p56, already cited as a source: "Cayden Cailean (CAY-den CAY-lee-en) is one of the Ascended, a mortal man who became a god after passing the grueling tests of the magical Starstone. Legend tells that, unlike the other Ascended, he was completely drunk at the time ..." -Oznogon (talk) 02:35, 11 December 2018 (UTC)

I'm asking about the gods that ascended via methods other than the Starstone. Have they been ever referred to as Ascended (capitalised), or does this term only refer to the four that became gods via the Starstone? - HTD (talk) 03:48, 11 December 2018 (UTC)

Ascended, capital A, seems to be mostly used as a title for the three who used the Starstone. I cannot think of any sources that use that specific term with a broader meaning. That being said, the actual number of gods who ascended to godhood by some means or another — Nethys, Irori, Lao Shu Po, Lamashtu, Urgathoa, and now Nocticula are all reputed in-universe or openly stated to have started as mortals, animals or lesser spiritual beings that later became actual deities — that I suspect that a broader page or category for them all would be useful to have. If nothing else, the concept of ascension is sufficiently well-established and widespread in-universe that I would see value in having a page discussing it. - Theriocephalus (talk) 15:18, 11 December 2018 (UTC)

I think Ascension summarises it well. 'Ascended' does seem to be limited to the Starstone but it'd be good to validate that assumption in canon. --Fleanetha (talk) 16:07, 11 December 2018 (UTC)

So looping back... how should we classify non-"Ascended" ascended deities? For example, should Category:Ascended pantheon be limited to "Ascended" deities or include non-Starstone deities? To distinguish "Ascended" from non-Starstone ascended mortals, should "Ascended" have a separate category? -Oznogon (talk) 19:55, 11 December 2018 (UTC)

The word 'pantheon' implies that they are part of a shared tradition, but mortals can become gods through all sorts of ways, so I'd propose to limit that category to Starstone deities and create a differently-named category for the other ascended mortals. - HTD (talk) 03:32, 14 December 2018 (UTC)

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Categorized ascended mortals into Category:Ascended mortals. -Oznogon (talk) 06:42, 14 December 2018 (UTC)

I'd agree that "pantheon" implies a degree of in-universe unity that may not really be present among all ascended deities. Having an Category:Ascended pantheon category for Aroden, Norgorber, Cayden and Iomedae and then a general-purpose category for deities who did not begin their lives as such, with Category:Ascended pantheon as a subcategory, seems like a good idea. My question, here, would be about what to do about the contents of the Category:Ascended mortals category — specifically about the implications of the term "mortal" and a) deities who originated as already powerful planar beings (Lamashtu, Nocticula) and deities who originated as animals and thus not mortals in the strictest sense (Lao Shu Po) - Theriocephalus (talk) 17:34, 14 December 2018 (UTC)

Can always have non-mortals in their own category, or use "cat:ascended deities" as a parent cat or instead of "cat:ascended mortals". animals are mortals, not inclined to split hairs there and def. do not want "ascended humanoids" "ascended animals" "ascended demons" and on and on. sorry for tone/formatting, on mobile -Oznogon (talk) 17:58, 14 December 2018 (UTC)

Outsiders can be killed when on their home plane, so if we use the colloquial definition of mortal "(of a living being) subject to death." I would say they still fit, albeit a bit clunky. While "ascended mortals" fits, it doesn't sounds right - once they are ascended, they are no longer mortal, and when they were mortal, they were not ascended. So while it fits, it doesn't. if "Deities ascended from mortals" wasn't so long, I would suggest that. But I'm open to pretty much any of the earlier suggestions -- Cpt kirstov (talk) 18:19, 14 December 2018 (UTC)

FWIW, the very first mention of Aroden in Gazetteer p3 calls him "an ascended mortal known as Aroden". I don't follow how it's unclear, but I'm open to using something that spells the concept out further if necessary.

Further, if "Any entity that has a soul but has not yet been judged by Pharasma in the Boneyard is considered mortal" isn't accurate then we need to update mortality, and we should use that as a consistent definition of the term. Also, gods can die—the central conceit of the setting is the death of a god. Pharasma judged Aroden so I'm satisfied calling him both a mortal and a deity as terms that aren't mutually exclusive, and extrapolating that to other ascended mortals in lieu of something explicitly countering it.

With some but relatively few exceptions (chiefly petitioner as the transitive post-mortal state) outsiders don't have souls, and technically don't "die" on their plane in the sense of mortality as defined by the setting; they can be destroyed but revert to planar energy that can then form another outsider. By rule (again—exceptions possible, but exceptional) they don't go through the whole River of Souls process again. This is expanded with citations in soul and furthered in petitioner; outsider could use a refresh as the part stating it there wants a source. -Oznogon (talk) 20:10, 14 December 2018 (UTC)