Talk:Spirit

Defining "spirit" and the scope of this article

I think this page deserves some special attention and possibly a redefinition. This is one of the more frequently linked stub pages, especially with the topics of recent publications including covenants, animists, and several cultures and settings in Tian Xia such as anito and the Spirit World as just some examples. In addition, this page is misleading at times, as not every creature or being called a "spirit" actually has the 2e mechanical trait nor are they always defined by spiritual essence. I am interested in expanding this page, but trying to untangle the many ways the word "spirit" is used, even limited to recent major publications, is not something I am able to do myself. The following is an incomplete list of some broad, overlapping but contradictory, categories of creatures referred to as spirits.

"Defined by spiritual essence"

The two relevant lines in 2e's Spirit trait(AoN) definition mostly matches the current definition used on this page, and is categorically represented on this wiki by Category:Spirit creatures. The word "ephemeral" was removed in 2e's Remastered definition of the spirit trait.

Notably, "Remastered" in this context means Player Core/GM Core/Monster Core. '"Rage of Elements, a quasi-Remastered work that frequently refers to spirits and contains creatures with the Spirit trait, still uses "ephemeral". -Oznogon (talk) 01:48, 29 December 2024 (UTC)

Secrets of Magic (18) seems to back this up as an in-universe category, with the in-universe publication On Essences drawing a distinction between "spirits in the true sense" and "spirits of nature" referring to leshies. The author also renames the spirits of nature to "vitae", which this wiki currently favors on the leshy page, despite no subsequent source (that I am aware of) following.

"Nature spirits"/"Spirits of nature"

These phrases are used several times and seem to lack definition. The 2e skill feat Consult the Spirits(AoN) only mentions leshies as an example of "spirits of nature", but this is a clearly incomplete list especially with recent publications.

Tian Xia World Guide (61, 139, 300-301) defines anito and kami as "nature spirits". Kami in particular actually have the spirit trait, at least most of the time (tsukumogami are a notable exception). Tian Xia Character Guide (43) supports these as part of a recognized in-universe category shared with leshies, describing how Tian leshies have kinship with tsukumogami and yakshas (who actually do have the spirit trait) as "spirits of nature". When used on these creatures' wiki articles, "spirit" links here, where leshy is excluded.

Elemental spirits

"Elemental spirits" and "spirits of (element)" are also frequently referenced and are a major part of covenants but I have similarly not found a definition for them (I do not have Rage of Elements to refer to, so I am hopeful there may be some additional disambiguation there).

I can confirm that Rage of Elements does not provide additional context. You already list all the mentions of "elemental spirit" in Rage with the AoN links of the following paragraph. -Oznogon (talk) 01:48, 29 December 2024 (UTC)

"Elemental spirit" seems have been used in 1e as a counterpart to mortal souls. In 2e, the Mechanical Symbiosis background(AoN) and nanoshard swarm(AoN) might be continuing this tradition. However, the Elemental Familiar feat(AoN), in both its SoM and RoE versions, describes a familiar becoming an elemental spirit, and the Elemental Heart Dwarf heritage(AoN) also refers to elemental spirits as a category of creature.

The Wisdom of the Winds spell(AoN) seems to present "spirits of air" broadly to mean air elementals or the air elemental lords, neither of which have the spirit trait. Conversely, the Breath of the Endless Sky, like all 6 elemental covenants, lists spirits of air as a separate member from air elementals.

The Stone Tell/Speak with Stones spell(AoN) mentions the "natural spirits of stone". In Secrets of Magic (17) the in-universe annotator of On Essences describes Stone Tell as using entities of pure Life essence.

Spirit World

Perhaps the most thorough description of spirits in recent publications is The Spirit World section of Tian Xia Character Guide (14-16), but it's unfortunately unclear how much of it is applicable beyond Tian Xia. The spirit world, and spirits as a whole, are described as lacking clear boundaries and are subject to scholarly debate.

Cultural spirits

Some cultures are described to have atypical categories of beings in their definition of "spirit". Rivethun and the dominant religion of Tang Mai (TXWG 212-213) both view deities as spirits. Rivethun extends further and considers fey, elementals, and others as spirits (Highhelm 28-29).

I think think this fluid-definition presentation of spirits is what this page should embody. My proposed change for this page is to redefine "spirit" as a culturally or philosophically dependent category of creature and include or mention everything here in some form. Potentially there could be a separate page for spirits that match the mechanical 2e trait, similar to how categories are split into Category:Spirit creatures and Category:Spirit, but with the range of pages currently linking to this page, I think it's clear the current scope should be expanded. -Ravenstone (talk) 17:58, 28 December 2024 (UTC)

If Paizo doesn't define spirits, any definition we create is at risk of being disruptively inaccurate; that's the main reason why I haven't tackled this sooner. The trait's definition is sparse and its application seems to be arbitrary. Usage of "spirit" in general seems to be equivalent to "soul" but in contexts around non-mortal beings; there are many elementals, so the term seems to be applied particularly frequently in association with them.

I don't mind attempting to generically define and include uses of "spirit" in canon contexts. I'm not sure what we gain for it. The biggest problem is the lack of any consistency in the canon, and we can't solve that. Only Paizo can.

I am not fond of edition-specific canon articles that depend entirely on interpreting mechanics. An external link to the trait on AoN seems more appropriate. Categories do not require, and are not obligated to have, a corresponding canon article; it's OK if the trait category lacks a canon article link.

Additional "spirit" issues in Rage:

Rage 7 describes aether as being a physical manifestation of "the spiritual" through elemental energies, claims it is the source of force effects, and also suggests aether is equivalent to quintessence (or confused with it—the wording is unclear).

Wisdom of the winds (Rage 73, AoN) questions "spirits of air" but also asserts that the responses could come from air elementals, anemoi, or the Elemental lords of Air.

Critically failing the sky signs ritual (Rage 73, AoN) offends "the spirits of air", who then write the opposite of the intended message in the sky for everyone to see.

Blustering gales (Rage 80, AoN) are "the least of the air elementals: spirits of the small breezes". Their statblock lacks the Spirit trait.

The "Tempestuous Spirits" sidebar on Rage 82 (AoN) suggests through usage that "spirit" and "elemental" are equivalent terms in the context of describing air elementals as a type of elemental.

Lithic loci (Rage 107, AoN) are the only creatures in Rage with both the Elemental and Spirit traits. It is not an "elemental spirit"; per its Echo the Past ability, when it casts invoke spirits, they draw spirits "from the locus's memories of people from their civilization".

Helpful wood spirits (Rage 196, AoN) doesn't summon wood spirits but "echoes" of spirits on the Plane of Wood, and describes them as often resembling (but not being) kodama.

Lomori sprouts (Rage 215, AoN) are "aeon spirits". They don't have the mechanical Spirit trait, and the description doesn't explain what (if anything) differentiates aeon spirits from aeons.

Howl of the Wild expands the definition of the Spirit trait to include effects: "Effects with this trait can affect creatures with spiritual essence and might deal spirit damage." The trait definition lacks "ephemeral", and nothing in the book defines "nature spirit" or "spiritual essence".

Also in Howl:

When describing centaur death rites on Howl 30, "spirit" is used as a synonym of "soul".

Centaur Speakers commune with spirits, and several feats refer to spirits or allow choosing to inflict spirit damage.

The blood in the water spell (Howl 62–63, AoN) has the Spirit trait and deals spirit damage. It summons "the spirits of aquatic predators to appear as a spectral swarm".

The spirit of the beast spell (Howl 67–68, AoN) refers to "the spirit of another animal that lives within your companion". The spell does not have the Spirit trait.

The summon Warden of the Wild spell (Howl 87–89, AoN) "briefly call(s) forth the spirit of one of the Wardens of the Wild". The spell does not have the Spirit trait.

A kushtaka relic (Howl 118–119, AoN) banishes a "spirit", referring to a "target possessing another creature". It deals spirit damage and lacks the Spirit trait. Kushtakas (Bestiary 3 158, AoN) are not spirits, lack the Spirit trait, and indeed lack souls altogether per their ability named "Null Spirit".

Howl 142 includes an in-universe passage asserting that "the elements have a life of their own" and refers to seeing in each element present in a mountaintop habitat "the spirit of an elemental bird".

Howl 182 includes several subtypes of spirit guide and refers to "quiet mouse spirits", which are not given a mechanical statblock, as being a type of guardian guide. The spirit guides on 182–183 have the Spirit trait.

Guns & Gears 215 asserts that typical golems are possessed of "elemental spirits". Curious how the Remastered Guns & Gears adjusts this for the retroactive removal of golems from the setting.

The ocean's roar ritual on War of Immortals 162 "invokes consciousness in a large body of water ... An ancient elemental spirit awakens in the water". The manifest spirit can take the form of a tsunami, and in a critical failure summons four elemental tsunamis. -Oznogon (talk) 01:48, 29 December 2024 (UTC)

Some more thoughts

Spirit is an often-used word in real life too: see Spirit on Wikipedia. It is a word that could be defined specifically but only in a certain context; it is a word that can be bandied about loosely to describe something supernatural. Looking at this article's meta page, Meta:Spirit, let alone yours and Oz's useful research above, shows a whole load of different material that could be added. I think making this Spirit page more of a nexus / disambiguation page might be a step forward, such that nothing here takes a priority as a primary meaning but, instead, the page serves to indicate the complexity and directs to the specific? That could be valuable and, I think, in line with your thinking above. The specific targets could handle any edition-specific issues too leaving this page as comprehensive; from memory, I think I felt spirit was a difficult term to pin down solely within 1E, so it's not an edition-related problem at root. --Fleanetha (talk) 14:03, 30 December 2024 (UTC)