PathfinderWiki talk:Canon policy/Archive 5

Subjects that are removed from canon

Currently, there is at least one subject that has a full-fledged article on this wiki, but has since been excised from canon itself, namely Tiamat. The revised draconic creation myth (as described in Travel Guide) makes no mention of her (note that in previous material, this creation myth was the only place to mention her at the first place), and according to this dev statement:

“

Tiamat is not a part of Golarion with the edition switch (Honestly, she never should have been in Pathfinder in the first place), so that myth is retconned away. She's a D&D character, not a Pathfinder character. Age of Ashes doesn't mention her at all for this reason.

”

I don't think that the wiki currently has an adequate policy to handle such cases (since if the subject already has an article, you can't comment the whole thing away unlike what was done to the formian hives on the Axis article). - HTD (talk) 11:45, 5 March 2023 (UTC)

Perhaps we could create a banner for articles (or sections) such as this. I would suggest we do not delete the originals from the wiki, but simply give them a banner that points out that they are no longer part of Golarion canon similar to the spoiler warnings. The wording for this could be that they are now considered "Apocrypha", which generally refers to noncanonical Christian texts, but is also used in a more general, non-religious context. --Brandingopportunity (talk) 16:09, 6 March 2023 (UTC)

I might even go as far as to move the entire article to Talk:Tiamat/Conflicts, and put the above reasoning above the current contents of the article (which is kept around for archival purposes, minus categories). Would such a change be too big and radical? - HTD (talk) 03:05, 7 March 2023 (UTC)

I think that would be a fine solution. --Brandingopportunity (talk) 16:04, 7 March 2023 (UTC)

This is relevant yet again in 2023/2024 thanks to the Pathfinder Second Edition Remaster Project. Of particular note is the state of drow, which have been retroactively removed from the campaign setting history only via forum post.

It will likely be years until the ramifications of that business decision have a more direct canon impact. In the meantime drow is now badged non-canon, which points to PathfinderWiki:Canon policy, which doesn't explain why drow would be considered non-canon. -Oznogon (talk) 19:27, 2 January 2024 (UTC)

Started compiling a list of articles likely to be affected by a retcon policy at User:Oznogon/Retconned articles, where all or a significant amount of content that's present on those subjects on the wiki have been retconned. Please contribute if there are any that should be called out. -Oznogon (talk) 02:48, 3 January 2024 (UTC)

Changes Accepted This section contains a discussion about changes to this policy that have been accepted.

Proposal 1

Alright, I'll propose adding this paragraph under Deleting invalid articles in whole or in part:

If an subject of an article is excised from canon:

• Cite the relevant statement(s) from Paizo staff that confirm that the subject no longer canonically exists in canon on the Conflict subpage of the article's talk page (such as Talk:Tiamat/Conflicts).
• Move the entire content of the article to this page below the staff confirmations.
• Turn the main page into a redirect to the Conflict subpage.

Is this sufficient to become an official policy? - HTD (talk) 11:26, 9 March 2023 (UTC)

There are some counter suggestions to consider too from Discord. We have a non-canon badge already [1] we could add to a page but keep the page as-is, as a very simple alternative. I think I'd prefer a descriptive note on a page to aid navigation, rather than 'hiding' a page as well. The conflict dagger is tiny and easily missed. This keeps us consistent with existing non-canon policy - we don't need two policies I'd say.--Fleanetha (talk) 09:48, 23 March 2023 (UTC)

The non-canon badge (or all badges, for that matter) are tucked in a corner and also easily missable. I see this as an extension of the current canon policy, with retconned content being removed from the main page and context put on the conflict page; since the entire subject is removed from canon, there would be nothing left on the main page (which could then automatically redirect to the conflict page, with no need for the conflict dagger). I'm not sure what 'hiding' a page is supposed to mean here; anyone searching for the subject can still find the content of the article, with a clear note that it's no longer canonical and is only kept around for archival purposes. - HTD (talk) 11:44, 24 March 2023 (UTC)

I've made a preliminary mockup at Talk:Tiamat/Conflicts. - HTD (talk) 14:55, 24 March 2023 (UTC)

Seems the 1E badge has been added to the article. I can't say this is an adequate measure for three reasons:

• • Badges in general are tucked in an out-of-the-way corner and easily missed. You also need to hover over them to even know what they're supposed to mean (which you cannot do on mobile devices).
  • It does not provide any context why this article is 1E content. It is simply there. Just an image and generic message.
  • While retcons might be most often with edition switches, there's no reason that prevents Paizo from changing continuity (and, by extension, excising subjects from canon) at any other time. Hell, the other such example (Folca) was removed nearly two years before 2E came out. - HTD (talk) 00:26, 26 March 2023 (UTC)
  • As someone who added 1E badge to Tiamat, there is no badge that clearly determines "was canon or officially in 1E but not in 2E". --Laclale (talk) 07:35, 27 March 2023 (UTC)

I suppose you didn't get my point. Adding a badge to the page is a woefully inadequate solution to address this problem. Even if you implement a brand new badge for 'things that used to be canon in 1E but not 2E', all three of the points I raised remain. - HTD (talk) 08:49, 27 March 2023 (UTC)

With the new reveals at Paizocon, it seems another article (which is much more higher-profile than the aforementioned two) is joining the club soon (drow). And since the retcon was made in the middle of 2E (after there's been a bit of drow content in 2E APs), it absolutely makes no sense to just slap the article with the 1E badge and be done with it. - HTD (talk) 23:46, 31 May 2023 (UTC)

Proposal 2

As an alternative to moving content that aren't discussions to the discussion namespace, and to preserve article histories and search functionality, and clarify valid sources for retcons, here's an alternative proposal:

• Add the following text to the canon policy under a new section header placed before "Regarding dates":

== Incorporating changes to canon ==

The Pathfinder campaign setting is a living and constantly evolving setting that changes in real time alongside new publications. Real-world events can also require changes to the setting, including retroactive changes to the setting's history, outside of this natural progression. Such changes can affect many articles on the wiki and require coordination and careful editing to retain consistency.

As part of PathfinderWiki's mission to compile official canon related to the Pathfinder campaign setting, we must balance documenting the setting's current state with retaining its history, including the parts of it that have been removed or changed over time.

Wiki visitors approach Pathfinder from multiple editions and for different reasons. To help visitors find information about canon subjects regardless of the edition or source that they are attempting to reference, never delete articles about canon subjects, and avoid moving entire articles out of the main namespace to other namespaces, such as Talk or Meta, in a manner that leaves only a redirect behind.

Deleting articles removes their history, which visitors researching past content about the campaign setting can use to reference it as it once existed without disrupting our work documenting the setting's current state. Moving entire articles out of the main namespace makes it harder for visitors to find and learn about the changes.

=== Defining canon changes ===

The wiki broadly classifies canon changes into three types:

• Paizo rarely issues setting errata, in which Paizo staff have explicitly and precisely stated that some aspect of the setting was included by mistake and never should have been acknowledged as canon.

The decanonization of Guardians of Dragonfall and removal of Folca are errata. Paizo staff have clearly stated that all published content related to those subjects is either fully retracted or retroactively considered wholly non-canonical.

This is the rarest form of canon change. Setting errata is the most authoritative tier of canon source; per the canon conflict process, it can result in the removal of wiki content with a conflict indicator and explanation added to a conflict page. See "Handling canon changes" for additional guidance.

• Paizo infrequently retcons, or retroactively modifies the continuity of, concepts in the campaign setting. Unlike errata, Paizo staff acknowledge in a retcon that a past aspect of setting canon was previously and intentionally part of canon, but have also retroactively changed or removed that aspect. A retcon represents a retroactive change or removal of acknowledged past canon, while errata represents a correction that can result in erasure.

The retroactive removal of the drow from the campaign setting as part of the Pathfinder Remaster is a retcon. Drow were allowed in Pathfinder canon only under a previous license, and after changing licenses Paizo have explicitly stated that drow cannot legally exist in the current canon state or history of the setting as they once did. Published canon works that used the drow under the prior license remain acknowledged as having intentionally, and not mistakenly or regretfully, been a past part of the setting canon.

Retcons can create canon conflicts and might include an in-universe justification for the retroactive change, but they do not require one. See "Handling canon changes" for details on resolving a retcon.

• The Pathfinder campaign setting advances in real time alongside new publications, and newly published events can result in large-scale changes to the current state of canon. This is the most common type of canon change. For example, the renaming of Sargava to Vidrian is an in-universe change explained in published canon works through the Vidric revolution.

An in-universe change is generally not considered a conflict and should not result in the removal of content from the wiki. If such a change appears to create a canon conflict, we prefer attempting to explain the event from an in-universe point of view unless a Paizo staff member issues a correction or clarification (see "Valid sources") that resolves the conflict. If a canon subject, such as Sargava in this example, is no longer present in the current state of the setting as a result of an in-universe change, retain its article and reflect this change in it as part of the subject's background or history.

=== Handling canon changes ===

• If errata has removed a previously canon subject from the Pathfinder campaign setting, the subject's main namespace article should very briefly identify what it was, link to a detailed description of the removed content and why it is no longer canon on its Meta page, and link to the last revision of the page prior to its canon removal. This documents the subject's removal, helps visitors who search the wiki for the subject learn about its removal, and helps editors identify links to that subject from other articles that should also be updated.

This serves a similar purpose as a main namespace disambiguation page: it helps readers find content relevant to the subject, even if that content primarily points out that the subject is no longer part of the setting.

• When a retcon affects only part of an article, cite the change inline as a reference. The citation should briefly describe the reason for the change and link to either a relevant article about the reason for the change, such as Pathfinder Remaster or the article's Meta page, or should link to an official statement on the retcon. If this also creates a canon conflict, follow the process for handling a canon conflict and describe both the retcon and conflict on the article's conflict page. For an example of a template that assists with this, see {{Cite canon change/Drow}}.

• If a retcon changes most or all of an article's content, describe the change on the article's Meta page, briefly summarize the change in the article's "References" section, and link to its Meta page description in this summary.

• When a retcon necessitates renaming an article, follow the process on Help:Renaming pages due to canon changes.

• In the rare instances where a retcon invalidates or removes all of a subject's canon relevance:

• Explain the change in detail on the article's Meta page, and include links to official sources that describe the nature and reasoning for the change.

• Add the retconned badge to the subject's article, which categorizes the article as retconned content, adds a banner that notes the retcon and links to the Meta page explanation, and links to the article's last revision prior to the retcon. Logged-in users can optionally disable this banner in their user preferences.

• Briefly summarize the retcon in the References section of the article and link to the detailed description on the Meta page.

• Though not all retcons have an in-universe explanation, if one exists, prominently incorporate it into the article's lede or first section.

• Edit any articles that link to the retconned subject to also reflect the change. This can be an inline retcon or might result in a canon conflict. If there is no canon explanation or replacement in the linked article's context and the course of action is unclear, raise a discussion on the subject on its Talk page or in our Discord.

• Make the Meta namespace searched by default per $wgNamespacesToBeSearchedDefault.

• Add a new retcon badge, and add a conditional banner with the badge that appears at the top of the page for anonymous visitors, similar to the spoiled badge banner. Add a gadget to allow logged-in users to opt out of it. (mockup image, prototype) If possible and relevant, such as in the event of a subject's complete retroactive removal from continuity, include a link to the article's last revision prior to the retcon in the banner.

• Add the following to the top of the "Valid resources" section:

Valid canon resources are organized into tiers, with Tier 0 being the most authoritative and Tier 4 the least. Published sources are preferred in all cases. Avoid citing sources that refer to works that have not yet been released, including official sources.

Errata and retcons are defined with examples in the "Defining canon changes" section.

• Replace the "World clarification..." point in Tier 3 of the "Valid resources" section as follows:

Verifiable statements from Paizo editorial staff that correct or clarify specific canon setting details, with the exception of retcons, posted in citable sources such as:

• permanent message board or blog posts on the Paizo website
• transcribed or timestamped videos, podcasts, and livestreams

-Oznogon (talk) 20:32, 2 January 2024 (UTC)

I think this is a good proposal. I would specifically highlight the use of a 'no longer canon' banner (hideable for logged in users but big & bold by default) and the preservation of page history by not moving the text as very good ideas. Frankly, I might start the section with the bit about not moving it for page history reasons, since that's very important. -Petronius (talk) 22:18, 2 January 2024 (UTC)

Edited proposal with a retcon-specific badge and banner example, to avoid overloading the existing non-canon sources badge. -Oznogon (talk) 00:11, 3 January 2024 (UTC)

I agree that this proposal addresses the major issues at play, and is wide enough that it should be relatively future-proof. Our problem up until now was that this level or documenting retcons was never needed, and the proposed policy would address future retcons without us needing to establish new policy. I think one of the most important parts of this is the stress on not removing content from the Main namespace. That may mean we want to separately address how we do Conflict pages, and make them subpages of the Main article instead of Talk, or incorporate Conflict content as a header into the Meta pages that already exist, along with the proposed retconning info.— Yoda8myhead (talk) 22:02, 3 January 2024 (UTC)

Out of curiosity I checked if the default namespaces used for search can be configured. They can: Manual:$wgNamespacesToBeSearchedDefault. It's possible to add Meta to the default search categories, so content copied or moved there could in theory still appear in normal search results without being in the main "canon" article.

If that's possible and works, I'd also suggest moving Conflict subpages from Talk to Meta. Extending default search namespaces might also maintain search results for entire articles moved out of the main namespace, since that's also a factor in HTD's proposal.

(I'd rather search the Meta namespace than Talk since discussions aren't necessarily canon-relevant for search, but the Meta namespace containing information on unincorporated canon sources, canon conflicts, and retcons is.)

Main namespace subpages have a few side effects, like appearing in editor and search bar autocompletion suggestions, that aren't necessarily bad but worth keeping in mind. -Oznogon (talk) 23:07, 3 January 2024 (UTC)

Edited the proposal formatting and noted that in the event of a completely removed subject, the retconned content should be included on Meta. Added a point that Meta should be added to the default search namespaces. Added a suggestion that the retcon banner links to the last revision prior to the retcon in the event of a subject's complete removal from canon. -Oznogon (talk) 01:39, 4 January 2024 (UTC)

Re: how to cite editorial staff clarifications, I think what's here might be as clear a policy as we can get, given that these are going to be very situational, and no policy is going to cover everything. I think we can head that off by saying that editors should use their best judgment to avoid causing more confusion, and if official staff statements have sweeping ramifications or contradict one another, to raise the topic to an admin or the discord for guidance.

It may also be good to clarify that only staff comments made on the Paizo forums using their verified account (not social media posts or reddit threads) can be cited in this way. References to timestamps in permanently available videos or podcasts is probably ok as well. I just want to avoid any weird impersonation issues, not that that has ever come up.

I think we may want to remove the freelance author line, however, at least for anything that isn't released yet, and even then, they are not the final arbiter of what saw print. It's entirely possible someone wrote something and clarifies based on their turnover, not knowing why specific changes they may invalidate were made.— Yoda8myhead (talk) 05:58, 4 January 2024 (UTC)

Significantly expanded and edited the proposal based on this and the associated discussion on the Discord.

• Defined and distinguished errata from retcons, and how in-universe changes are distinct from both, with examples. This might be more appropriate for PathfinderWiki:Canon policy FAQ.
• Separated the process of an errata-based full article removal like Folca from a retcon-based full-article flag or edit like drow.
• Added a point requesting that articles linking to a retconned subject be updated.
• Completely rephrased the Tier 3 clarification point to emphasize its limited scope, require verifiability, and remove the freelancer provision.

I also proposed a new guideline for using comments from Paizo staff on the wiki, and more broadly on interacting with staff on wiki-related subjects, at PathfinderWiki:Interact respectfully with Paizo staff. -Oznogon (talk) 21:52, 4 January 2024 (UTC)

Tomorrow, 11 January 2024, will be one week from the last major revision to Proposal 2. Please comment in favor of, against, or for further revisions to both current proposals as soon as possible before a decision is made. (As an admin and the proposal's author, I support Proposal 2 but will not make a decision on whether to approve it.) -Oznogon (talk) 16:58, 10 January 2024 (UTC)

Only proposal 2 or similar makes any sense. Anything that causes content to be removed, vanish, or be "swept under the rug" is the wrong answer. The wiki should encompass all info in all Pathfinder sources, even those that Paizo might want to consider obsolete. Any other solution is a huge disservice to the entire community (which is much, much more than just active Pathfinder 2e Remastered Organized Play players) and an offense to previous contributors to boot. --Emky (talk) 20:06, 10 January 2024 (UTC)

Agree with this change to canon policy overall. CadeHerrig (talk) 04:58, 12 January 2024 (UTC)

Thanks to HTD and Oznogon for proposing solutions to this knotty problem. We need to do something and it is impressive to see the gradual and sensitive evolution of a proposal that tackles all the concerns and foreseen problems raised, namely Proposal 2, which now supersedes the original Proposal 1 for its scope of handling the various issues here. I am very comfortable to support Proposal 2 as a policy change. --Fleanetha (talk) 16:12, 14 January 2024 (UTC)

As of 14 January 2024, all input here since the last revision made (on 4 January 2024) has not sought amendments to either proposal and all editors who have commented have supported the adoption of change and, where stated, specifically that in Proposal 2. It thus seems we are close to being able to make a decision, so I propose we aim to close this process in one week's time, namely on Sunday 21 January 2024, so please ensure any further comments and votes are made here by Saturday 20 January 2024. --Fleanetha (talk) 16:26, 14 January 2024 (UTC)

Deadline has come and gone and we have a consensus to adopt the changes in Proposal 2 above into formal PathfinderWiki policy. Many thanks to all who have taken part in an important and timely discussion to make some very necessary changes. --Fleanetha (talk)

Fanon now uses non-canon badge

Changes Rejected This section contains a discussion about changes to this policy that have been rejected.

Fanon is mix of Fan and Canon, so non-canon badge is usable for there. --Laclale (talk) 23:18, 25 March 2023 (UTC)

Why is fanon content even being added to this wiki at the first place, though? - HTD (talk) 00:26, 26 March 2023 (UTC)

Paizo's april fools blog entry --Laclale (talk) 07:00, 27 March 2023 (UTC)

That does not qualify as fanon. - HTD (talk) 08:49, 27 March 2023 (UTC)

First, I came here for my fanfic. But felt like they aren't accepting it. Even our headcanon, except paizo staff's.--Laclale (talk) 22:07, 2 January 2024 (UTC)

Headcanon and fan fic should not be on the wiki. That is the current policy. It is your right to disagree, but you would have to sway editors' consensus against it to change the policy.

The policy is in this project page, specifically:

"Articles should not be created for subjects that are not included or referred to in an official Pathfinder source."

as well as:

"The following resources are considered invalid and should not be referenced in any form in an in-world article:

• Fan-made personalities, locations, deities, events, spells, items, or histories, including those in such publications as Wayfinder.
• Fan fiction of any kind."

- Petronius (talk) 22:24, 2 January 2024 (UTC)

Correct, fanon is beyond the Scope of the project, and as such should not be on the wiki at all, even with a non-canon indicator. There is probably room in the community for a fanon wiki maintained by a different wiki staff, but this wiki is used by internal Paizo staff, freelance contributors, and licensed partners as a comprehensive record of canon, and having fanon here (even with notices) risks having that non-Paizo-owned content leak into official sources in a way that could cause legal trouble for Paizo. This is not something we should even be discussing as a policy change.— Yoda8myhead (talk) 22:07, 3 January 2024 (UTC)

I didn't realize this was even a proposal. If it really is, I fully and aggressively agree that it should not be enacted. Fanon content has no place on a canon wiki. -Oznogon (talk) 01:46, 4 January 2024 (UTC)

Apologies from me too, Laclale, as I also hadn't seen this as a formal request for a policy change. I have made it such now by adding the {{Change policy}} banner. We can now conclude this formally and have this discussion preserved as per PathfinderWiki:Policies and guidelines for future editors to review. I suggest we time box this discussion and conclude it in just over a week's time, next Saturday 13 January 2024. --Fleanetha (talk) 15:27, 4 January 2024 (UTC)

My personal view is that I think what you want is a great idea but would be a perfect sister website or wiki separate to PathfinderWiki, with this wiki acting as the 'baseline' for the fan-added material, rather than something we should add to PathfinderWiki. Unfortunately, Laclale, I also then have to disagree with this proposal. --Fleanetha (talk) 15:27, 4 January 2024 (UTC)

Disagree with this change. Do not want fanon on the wiki. CadeHerrig (talk) 04:59, 12 January 2024 (UTC)

At deadline day and a good amount of interaction received - thank you all. Result is that the majority do not want fanon admitted to the PathfinderWiki sources, so I am formally attaching a 'Changes Rejected' badge to this change discussion and closing this process. --Fleanetha (talk) 13:09, 13 January 2024 (UTC)