Template talk:Deities navbox

Camazotz

James Jacobs said in a recent chat that Camazotz's five domains (and the deity power level that comes along with that) was not an accident. He is of the same power level as any of the other "core 20." He has just been typically left off the list because he is not worshipped in the Inner Sea region. He is, however, worshipped by many in Arcadia and other parts of Golarion that have not been detailed. As such, I think he should remain with the other "full" deities who have five domains. -- Yoda8myhead 01:38, 11 March 2009 (UTC)

I think thats a really bad idea, he is major, I won't argue that, but I wouldn't include him in the core 20. It'll cause confusion, it already has among people who told me and were confused, which is why I changed it. Make another bracket for less widely worshipped major gods, OR just include him in minor, but say he is the power level of a major god, just not widely worshipped in the Inner Sea. People who want to learn about golarions gods, will want the main, important faiths rightly seperate. 'God bloat' is a very bad thing, it could even turn people off the setting, because there will be other major dieties, we should really, really keep that the core twenty. Reword the titles perhaps. Just keep the core twenty notably seperate, for player friendliness sake at very least. --Vagrant-Poet 09:16, 11 March 2009 (UTC)

It may be player friendly to keep him separate at the moment because all campaigns are taking place in the Inner Sea region, but any campaign or adventure taking place somewhere else will have it's own core 20. If we're going to divide it up by power level, then we shouldn't pick and choose who actually goes in the category of their power level. -- Yoda8myhead 13:23, 11 March 2009 (UTC)

Maybe, but ultimately the Inner Sea Region is the heart of the setting, and the core 20 gods are the core 20 gods. Other areas will have their own panteons, and these pantheons could be added, or made part of a seperate template, but the main template doesn't need to include them as major faiths because, in the core of the setting, their not. Maybe the template could be expanded to include titles like Pantheons, and Other Major Dieties, but the core 20 and Aroden should be a seperate and exclusive grouping. --Vagrant-Poet 01:24, 12 March 2009 (UTC)

I still don't agree, but I'll change it back. We can always alter it later. ;-) -- Yoda8myhead 01:29, 12 March 2009 (UTC)

Very true, maybe we could see if Hank could give us a ruling, or get a kinda general concensus, both of us beleive in our arguement, but it's a paizo community site, so maybe that'll sort it. Again it can be altered later. In fact maybe specific pantheons should get their own little sub-templates, like Irori & Grumashtu for the Vudrani, Apsu/Dahak for draconic, not on this template per se. But a seperate template that can be used on relevant pages, the world can only grow, and there will surely be entirely different beliefs on the other planets, etc. --Vagrant-Poet 02:09, 12 March 2009 (UTC)

EDIT: Just had a look, really like the new layout, makes it clear that it's not neccesarily all the major level deities on the upper list. Good work! --Vagrant-Poet 02:11, 12 March 2009 (UTC)

I don't think we need to get anyone from Paizo involved in the running of the wiki to that degree, but I know Hank and others have made some edits on here before and they can contribute to the discussion through the normal wiki channels the same as anyone else. Thanks for the feedback. -- Yoda8myhead 05:09, 12 March 2009 (UTC)

Added demi-gods and goddesses

FYI, I added the Demon lords, Four Horsemen, Archdevils, and Empyreal lords to this template, as they also grant spells and domains. Since I didn't want the template to become ginormous, I only added them as categories, and made sure the pages that they link to have links to all the individual members. --brandingopportunity 02:14, October 10, 2009 (UTC)

I like this approach instead of making the table huge. I think we should divide subcategories from the individual demigods, though, as a third section of the template. This will make it easier to jump straight to one of the subcategories without scanning through other deities to find them in the list. - yoda8myhead 22:01, October 30, 2009 (UTC)

I added all the missing gods from the portal to this tonight except, for the record, the 'Other Divine Beings from the Planes of Good' and the 'Other Divine Beings of Hell'. I wonder, referring to the comments above, whether this template is now 'ginormous' and needs a thorough remaking. I spent quite a lot of time thinking out the portal recently and changed it and wonder if this template should follow suit: obvious split between demigods and gods; collating deities into their pantheons; maybe even having just a pantheon link to a new pantheon template for each one rather than individual god names? --Fleanetha 21:59, 16 December 2011 (UTC)

A rough draft of the Other Gods group divided into subgroups:

Any thoughts? It would break the {{Other deities list}} up, but those component lists could be useful elsewhere. --Oznogon (talk) 06:18, 14 September 2014 (UTC)

Another useful thing left languishing stumbled upon doing other things...This is great and much better than the splurge we currently show: let's use this. It may need a sprucing up for newer deities since nearly a year ago and also I am not a great fan of linking to categories where we don't need to do so. Eventually each pantheon should merit (and some already do) a page of their own a la Osirian pantheon. I did change for the Osirian and Vudran pantheon, but maybe we don't want a wall of red links so stopped there for now. Maybe a quick stubbing of the required pages would work? --Fleanetha (talk) 05:32, 3 September 2015 (UTC)

Ahiram

I can't find any reference to "Ahiram" in any PF materials; I think it's a misspelling of "Ahriman".--Filby 18:32, 19 December 2011 (UTC)

Yup, that seems to be the case. This brings up an interesting point. Now that I'm a Venture-Captain for PFS (please, please, hold the applause), I have access to all Paizo PDFs. What this means, is that when I search for a given term, I can be fairly sure that I find every instance of it. I even copy the Web Fiction into a Word doc, which I export as PDFs. The reason I bring this up, is that I've been thinking of creating a little code and placing it on the various talk pages, letting people know that on a certain date a given term was searched and that the article contains all information about this term. It would be something like "Complete as of DD/MM/YY". Would this be useful to others? --Brandingopportunity 07:39, 20 December 2011 (UTC)

Separation

It seems to me that the separation between 'Other Gods' and 'Other Minor Powers' in this template is really inconsistent. The latter includes divine members of outsider races as well as some other pantheons like Great Old Ones and Iron Gods, but not all (like the dwarven or orc pantheons, who are also mostly made of demigods), while the former is a mess of everything from full deities to demigods (including those already covered by the latter section like Mestama), quasi-deities and even things that are not deities at all (like Azghad or Shimye-Magalla) or those whose divinity is questionable or unrevealed. Maybe I should move all the demigods to the lower section and reserve the upper one to true deities... - HTD (talk) 10:28, 30 October 2018 (UTC)

Does anyone have anything to say about this proposal, or should I just go and clean up this template right now? - HTD (talk) 15:35, 8 November 2018 (UTC)

I suggest HTD, that this work has been needed for quite some time, so many thanks for volunteering to get on with it. You'll find a number of ideas here to help you improve the template too. For such a project as this, when a major template is being amended, I would ask you set up a User:HTD/Sandbox and work there until you are happy with the new template to be reviewed, then people can advise and agree that it is ready to replace the old one. Some pointers: don't worry about duplication in the template - some gods will fit into more than one category; have a look at Portal:Religion for guidance as that is more advanced than this template; if someone somewhere on Golarion worships it as a god, it has a right to be in this template; Oznogon's suggestion above is a good start. --Fleanetha (talk) 16:10, 8 November 2018 (UTC)

So this is what I've written up:

The intent is to keep true deities in the upper half and demigods in the lower half. - HTD (talk) 04:40, 9 November 2018 (UTC)

I would subdivide the Other Minor Deities section even further:

This makes it easier to scan through the list if you vaguely know what you're looking for. -Oznogon (talk) 18:15, 11 December 2018 (UTC)

So should I make the change for real (with new info from Faiths of Golarion) now? - HTD (talk) 00:10, 13 December 2018 (UTC)

It's certainly improving, HTD, and thanks again for picking this up. I think the version further up that Oznogon made is even more useful breaking down the regional and racial pantheons + Dark Tapestry and dead deities. Could you look at that one and consider such structure? Plus, please ensure everything is copied across as there are gaps I see. As this is going to be a major change needing all the pages to be tweaked, let's get broad agreement before it is posted to avoid rework. --Fleanetha (talk) 09:47, 13 December 2018 (UTC)

(Indentation reset) This is what I'm intending to change the template to. The omission of the Eternal Emperor is intentional, as evidence points to this individual not being a deity (Temple of the Peacock Spirit describes this 'religion' as a form of atheism). - HTD (talk) 10:04, 13 December 2018 (UTC)

If there's no more discussion, I'll make the actual change in a week according to this:

-HTD (talk) 14:58, 12 January 2019 (UTC)

"Plus, please ensure everything is copied across as there are gaps I see." - still stuff outstanding from previous comment, HTD. Any change needs discussion, not your individual veto please. --Fleanetha (talk) 15:31, 12 January 2019 (UTC)

I presume that the entries in question are Azghat and the Eternal Emperor (which have never been stated to have been actual deities), Vritra, Mazludeh, Mestama (who are, respectively, an asura rana, an empyreal lord and a demon lord and therefore have already been covered by the entries for the groups), and Shimye-Magalla (which is two entities, not one, and has already been covered by Desna and Gozreh). Am I missing something? - HTD (talk) 00:36, 13 January 2019 (UTC)

I still don't see any reasoning for removing them from the navbox in this response. This is a navigational aid for articles, not a canonical list that requires absolute accuracy. If they shouldn't be in this list, they shouldn't be articles, and that's a case to be made on their individual articles.

Maybe consider something organizationally additive instead of exclusive and reductive, such as an additional section for folklore and religions (which could also bring Razmir back into this box). -Oznogon (talk) 04:12, 13 January 2019 (UTC)

(Reset indentation) To each issue:

If we were to include members of demigod pantheons in this template (those that are not full deities), then we might very well scrap their navboxes entirely and merge them into this one (and I don't really want to imagine the ensuing bloat).
If we were to include religions independently of deities (including false ones like Razmir's cult), then we'll have to define what exactly constitutes such a 'religion', because there's nothing that prevents you from worshipping some random monster (but you won't receive any divine spells unless if that monster somehow has a divine source). The word deity is pretty well-defined in PF; I think this issue is better served by its own discussion (and its own navbox). - HTD (talk) 13:46, 13 January 2019 (UTC)

Are there still any objections? - HTD (talk) 08:38, 17 January 2019 (UTC)

Yes, HTD: the objections above. What I suggest, if you want to do the basic update you suggest, is to copy all across to your new format, so it's easier to review and then we can consider the gods individually if we need to thin them down, but remember Oznogon's comments about this navbox being an aid to users not the canonical list. Anyway, step at a time. --Fleanetha (talk) 15:29, 17 January 2019 (UTC)

Turns out I had to create a whole category for them, as they are neither full gods nor demigods. If we were to still include non-gods in this template, then the name of this fourth group (and the whole template) will very likely need to be changed. - HTD (talk) 16:09, 17 January 2019 (UTC)

Revisitng this discussion... If it is unadvised to remove items from this template, then could the proposed fourth category be expanded to include religions that do not worship a deity like the Prophecies of Kalistrade or the Green Faith? I think it is somewhat arbitrary that some non-deific religions have to be included (the ones already in the current template, like the Azghat or the Eternal Emperor) and others are not. In that case though, would it be necessary to rename the template (to something like 'Religions navbox')? - HTD (talk) 11:13, 17 June 2019 (UTC)

Where is the progress on this? It is still rather unorganized. -- Marphod (talk) 20:16, 3 March 2022 (UTC)

It's a job that needs concluding and implementing, Marphod. Have a look back at the conversation here and see if you can pull together a comprehensive, well-structured replacement bearing in mind the toing and froing above; Oznogon's concept was the most complete. You can create your own sandbox area to experiment or use this discussion area as you wish. There is another index of gods here too: Portal:Religion, which needs keeping aligned. --Fleanetha (talk) 08:27, 12 March 2022 (UTC)

I mostly forgot about it. To be fair, at this point, I'm not even sure if this could (or should) even be done anymore, seeing how little divine ranks actually matter (especially in 2E, where every divine being has 4 domains). - HTD (talk) 14:25, 13 March 2022 (UTC)

It deserves to be cleaned up, regardless. Even if the division is by Pantheon/psuedo-pantheon. I'll take a pass at it, -- Marphod (talk) 22:16, 17 March 2022 (UTC)

Demigods mixed in with Full Deities

The existence of a "Minor deific powers" section which contains the major categories of demigods, and "Ancestral deities" for the racial pantheons containing most of the rest, has caused at least one person (not me) to mistakenly believe that anyone listed in the "Other deities" section is a full god (five domains, can't be given a stat block, can't be killed without ENORMOUS degrees of mythic power and/or direct divine assistance), when this is not true of at least Erecura, and possibly others - that's a long list and I haven't found anything with the spot checks I made on the rest. Hopefully there's another one or two and it could be made another row in Template:Minor deific powers, since a single entry next to all those lists would look very strange. Even if not, it ought to be fixed somehow. Possibly dropping Erecura out of the list entirely. ~~Or by convincing Paizo to give her a fifth domain and full divinity. Alas, Hubris isn't a valid one anymore in 2E so she can't steal it from her husband.~~ PDV (talk) 05:16, 4 October 2024 (UTC)

Post-Divine Mysteries renovation

With the recent release of Divine Mysteries, now could be a good time to do some cleanup and adjustments to the deity navbox. This is a list of non-interdependent suggestions to make the navbox more navigable I want to put out there:

~~Create new 'Ancestral deities' groups, and move their members out of Other deities (only if they are primarily seen as part of the pantheon; Groetus, Achaekek, etc. can remain in multiple places).~~
1. Dragon (2 members in 'Other deities'); There are only 2 right now but others were mentioned in Divine Mysteries. (Done)
Remove the Cosmic Caravan group from the navbox entirely as none of its members are known primarily as a member of the Cosmic Caravan.
Create a new group, Regional deities, and move Ancient Osirian, Mammoth Lords, Old Sun Gods, Sarkorian, Tien, and Vudran groups there, as well as Arcadian and Azlanti if they are added.
Define what qualifies for Other deities. Personal suggestion: To be eligible for the 'Other deities' list, gods should either not be present in any of the Core, Ancestral, Regional, or Minor deific power groups, OR have a profile such that their presence in one or more of those groups is considered secondary to their identity (Alseta, Achaekek, etc.) Those like Casandalee and Grandmother Spider are in a grey area.

This is a rough draft using the existing Template:Deities_list categories of what the Navbox might look like with all of these changes. -Ravenstone (talk) 07:39, 22 November 2024 (UTC)

This looks fine to me.

As noted on Template talk:Other deities list, I'd rather see separate navboxes for each grouping, since an all-in-one navbox is still unwieldy and redundant with Portal:Religion. Some deities are in multiple groupings, and I'm also still unsure if it's possible to make {{Navbox with collapsible groups}} expand more than one navbox target at once without resorting to expanding them all, or requiring the use of Scribunto navbox modules or MediaWiki extensions to handle the logic.

Along with several new types of groupings in mechanically defined pantheons and covenants, continuing to include every possible grouping in one navbox will also make it harder to navigate and maintain. -Oznogon (talk) 22:24, 19 December 2024 (UTC)